Empowering Young Voices in Education with Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox S10E8 (138)
If students learn best when they feel seen, known and connected, why do our systems still prioritise content delivery over relationships?
If the future rewards explorers more than achievers, why do we continue to design education around compliance, scores and linear pathways?
🎙️ Episode Summary
In this episode of the Learning Future Podcast, host Louka Parry engages with two Year 11 students, Flynn Thomas and Chelsea Cox, from Hunter Valley Grammar School. They discuss their experiences in education, focusing on themes such as adaptability, time management, the importance of wellbeing, and the role of relational connections in teaching. The conversation also explores student agency, the value of skills over academic scores, and the impact of technology and social media on young people's lives. Flynn and Chelsea share their insights on navigating career pathways and the evolving landscape of education, emphasizing the need for a learning mindset in an unpredictable future.
👤 About Flynn Thomas
Flynn Thomas is a Year 12 student at Hunter Valley Grammar School (NSW, Australia) and a passionate advocate for student voice and leadership in education. As Co-Founder, Producer, and Head of Podcast for The Grammar Grapevine, Flynn leads the behind-the-scenes production, creative direction, and strategic development of the student-run show.
Beyond the podcast, Flynn has recently been appointed as the President of the HVGS Student Council, where he champions student agency and community engagement across the school. Flynn has spoken on the national stage, including as a panellist at the Heads of Independent Co-educational Schools’ 2025 Conference, where he addressed hundreds of school leaders on the importance of elevating student perspectives. He has also presented to the full HVGS staff on strengthening student voice and agency within schools.
👤 About Chelsea Cox
Chelsea Cox is a Year 12 student at Hunter Valley Grammar School and the Co-Founder, Host, and Head of Podcast for The Grammar Grapevine. As the lead interviewer and on-air voice of the show, Chelsea drives its conversational style, storytelling approach, and connection with the school community.
Chelsea is also the Liverpool House Captain at HVGS, where she plays a key role in community building and student leadership. A strong advocate for meaningful student representation, she has spoken alongside Flynn at the Heads of Independent Co-educational Schools’ 2025 Conference and has presented to the entire HVGS staff on the significance of student voice and agency in contemporary schooling.
📘 Takeaways
Both students are learning to adapt to change and manage time effectively.
Schools are increasingly focusing on wellbeing and mental health.
Authentic connections between teachers and students enhance learning.
Student agency is crucial for engagement in education.
Skills should be prioritized over academic scores in education.
Career pathways are no longer linear; flexibility is key.
Social media can create unrealistic expectations for young people.
AI and technology are rapidly changing the landscape of education.
A learning mindset is essential for future success.
The future of work will require continuous learning and adaptation.
🔗 Connect and Resources Mentioned
🔗 Stay Connected with Louka Parry
For the latest learning innovation follow Louka on LinkedIn
Share your thoughts by visiting www.thelearningfuture.com
Tune in to be inspired, challenged, and reminded why love truly is at the heart of learning.
[Transcript Automated]
Louka Parry (00:01)
Well, hello again, everybody, and welcome to the learning future podcast. I'm of course your host, Louka Parry Today we've got a special episode because instead of talking about young people and their experience of education and how we might shape it so that it enables them to thrive and develop, we are speaking with two young people experiencing education. The wonderful Flynn and Chelsea, they are two year 11 students from Hunter Valley Grammar School in New South Wales, Australia. We're very lucky we all met at a conference where they sat on a panel.
in front of a room full of principals and deputy principals and they did an absolutely fantastic job. So it's great to be back with you both Flynn and Chelsea. Thanks for joining.
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (00:39)
Thank you so much for having us.
Louka Parry (00:42)
Absolute pleasure. Uh, you're on the other side of the mic in some ways, cause I know that you both host the grammar grapevine podcast as well, which is so awesome. And I wish I had hosted a podcast when I was in high school myself. Um, but I want to start with this question. What is something that you're learning right now? Either directly through school or some of the capabilities. What's something that you're reflecting on as, as two year 11th, which means you're both 16, 17, right?
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (01:08)
Yes, I think something that both Flynn and I have had to really learn how to do lately is adapting to change and managing different outcomes of situations. We've recently, throughout the course of the last year, we've gone through the leadership process for our school and results came out last week, two weeks ago, two weeks ago and
Louka Parry (01:29)
Alright.
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (01:38)
I think obviously we're happy with the roles we got, but it was a bit, it wasn't what we expected. So I think we both had to navigate how to manage change and how to go about receiving an outcome that we didn't necessarily hope for or want. My moment is definitely time management. I feel like I have lots happening and trying to
Louka Parry (01:48)
Mmm.
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (02:06)
prioritize my time to get the most out of my days. We have our year 11 preliminary exams in like a week. They in two they start in two days, not a week. Anyways, so that's a bit stressful and everything else going on. So that's my big struggle at the moment.
Louka Parry (02:21)
Yeah.
Interesting.
Time management and calendar management, think, Flynn, for you at this point, you know, two days out, a week out. you know, like, I want you to tell us a little bit about, because I think adaptability as a theme, Chelsea, and kind of time management, or even energy and attention management, Flynn, which are kind of all related, you know, ⁓ what do you think education is doing really well at the moment? Where do you think Okay, cool, schools are
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (02:30)
and
Yeah.
Louka Parry (02:55)
preparing me in this way well. And then of course I want you to flip that to the inverse and say, and I think actually this is something that's kind of missing still from the way that we've designed them.
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (03:05)
think something schools are doing really well is, I think at least at our school we have a lot of a bigger focus on wellbeing and mental health and compared to when I was in primary school that wasn't something we even ever talked about. So now in high school and for the psychology or wellbeing teams and even staff members to understand, okay, high school's a big load, students have a lot to deal with between a social life, family life, work life and education.
we have to help them know the skills to manage everything on their plate so they're still getting what they need to done but also are still happy people who feel motivation and commitment to what they're doing and they're not just drained all the time. So I think that's something schools are doing better than they were. Yeah I would say I think there's kind of a bit of a narrative changing around
Louka Parry (03:54)
Yeah, great. Flynn?
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (04:04)
the traditional kind of way of school. I think a lot of, I'm not sure that it's trickled down into kind of every teacher, but I think in terms of leadership, we've spoken at a few different conferences. And generally, I think leaders are really recognising that what schooling is now and traditionally isn't where it needs to be in the future. And I think the kind of experimentation about that is something that is really positive.
Louka Parry (04:34)
On that point, what makes a good, what makes a great teacher and a great leader?
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (04:42)
This is kind of what I spoke about at the conference. But Dr John Faschetti introduced me to the idea of relational versus transactional connections. And I think something that really elevates a student's learning and maximises their potential is when they do have an authentic connection with their teacher. Because from my perspective, and I think I speak for a lot of young people, when they feel known and supported and understood in their learning environment, they're more likely to succeed because they have
Louka Parry (04:52)
Mmm.
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (05:13)
a strong sense of connection and support around them. Whereas if you have a teacher who doesn't really make the effort or go the little extra distance to get to know you, you're basically two strangers and you're just there, you're learning their teaching, that's all it is. But if you have a genuine connection with them, it's more than that and then students gain respect for them as teachers, just as, gain respect for them as human beings, not just as teachers.
Louka Parry (05:32)
you
Yeah, I definitely think that's something about... ⁓
That's, think put really beautifully, ⁓ Chelsea, you know, the relational aspect of teaching, which we talk a lot about on this podcast, by the way. ⁓ of course, one of the challenges is the back to your point on time management, Flynn, you know, this often feels like there's so much to do. so much content to get through. And so I think the danger is you can fall into that transactional approach. as a teacher, the other thing that I'm really curious about is.
Actually, Flynn, do you have a reflection on that as well? What would you say makes a great teacher or a great school leader?
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (06:17)
I would say mine's
pretty similar. I think it's all about people and relationships. think people love people and I think teaching is a form of communication and I think realizing that the communicating is actually sometimes more important than the knowledge. think
Louka Parry (06:35)
Mm.
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (06:36)
We had ⁓ a casual teacher who ⁓ was teaching here and he'd been like the head of maths at a very prestigious school here in Australia. And he said that I will never hire someone with a doctorate or some crazy like certificate because
their knowledge level is up here and the students are here and it's great to have all this knowledge but if you can't communicate that effectively there's not much when in having it.
Louka Parry (07:08)
That's such an interesting tension, right? And there, have seen this, kind of view as well, which is the best person to teach you something is actually the person that only just learned it. It's kind of interesting because it's kind of like the expert paradox. I'm an expert. I've forgotten actually what I had to do to get, it's why I think understanding the learning process as you're both talking to is such a, such a key point. The other thing I'm really curious about is the
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (07:19)
Yeah.
Louka Parry (07:37)
student agency question, which again was another big theme on this, the learning future podcast, because, you know, we talk about this work from Jenny Anderson, Rebecca Winthrop, the disengaged teen, and it looks at, you know, the big challenge we have right now, which is actually for a lot of adolescents in the world, including Australia, the level of engagement at school is, is not great. Because as you say, it's kind of, it doesn't, they're not seeing the relevance. haven't got the relational frame. They're distracted by social media and addiction and through technology.
⁓ which we know is also a factor. So what would you say about ⁓ agency?
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (08:14)
Hmm. I think it is really important for students to understand the why of their education. And I think that kind of helps with that motivational part. But I think from student perspectives, like it sometimes is really hard to engage yourself when you're learning content that isn't relevant and can be outdated. And I think as teachers,
I know definitely in New South Wales there is this huge kind of divide of your kind of goals in trying to get a student ready for the outside world and what they're actually going to go out into the world with which is very different to what we know today and to also getting them the best possible marks in their final exams that gives them the best ATAR to get into uni. So I think
Louka Parry (09:00)
Yes.
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (09:10)
That is kind of something really tricky both for teachers and students. But I think where agency comes into it, it's kind of that part about getting the students to want to learn themselves. ⁓
and feeling trusted and it goes back to the relationships as well. Like I think there's a bit of a generational thing at the moment where students don't like being looked down on. They like being at the same level. And I think something that we both have said we really enjoy is when we're kind of on a learning experience with the teacher. It's not just them talking to us.
and when they say things like, I'm actually not sure about that, can someone look that up? And as a class, we're actually investigating these kind of issues. As a whole, rather than the teacher teaching us and we're left for ourselves, they're on this journey with us. Yeah.
Louka Parry (09:54)
Mmm.
Hmm. Yeah, there's something beautifully authentic about that. Right. And, and honestly, it's pretty, it's the most exciting way to teach is to be learning something as you go rather than kind of just like, I'm just going to tell you what I know. Um, that's such an interesting reflection. There's, there's something that we know as well, Flynn, to this point and, and agency really is, it's not something you have, it's something you do. It's the ability to be a self starter to kind of generate your own questions. So this, this idea, and I don't know if you've heard this concept before of
being an auto didact, which is just a self learner or self teacher. And so, you know, YouTube, and if you've got some good questions, you could actually pretty well find out some pretty good things based on just accessing the internet, let alone now with artificial intelligence. So yeah, you know, you can, we can, I think we're set up to kind of create achievers in schools, which is follow the process. The challenge is the world rewards explorers, people that can also
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (10:45)
Yeah.
in the.
Louka Parry (11:02)
to achieve, but they have high agency, they're asking different questions, they're going out and getting things, learning things, finding out, which is like more of like, you know, an explorer mindset, instead of just an achiever mindset, which I'm interested in. Here's a question for you both. If you had a choice, I'm making this a difficult question. If you had a choice to go through an education experience that really prepared you for the world with the right capabilities,
but actually you got a lower score on your academic achievement, but you had all these kind of upside things that meant you were better prepared to step into the world. Or you could just get basically a top score at university, but you were missing some of those other capabilities. Which of those two paths would you choose?
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (11:50)
I'd choose the first path. Yeah, I agree. And I think a lot of people would argue that through the skills you learn in getting like the perfect exam score, do teach you things to life. And we're obviously in year 11. So I went last weekend to some
uni open days in Sydney. And it was really interesting to hear about their kind of different takes on education. And I think I went to one that was a lot older and more prestigious and their thing was talking about how you kind of learn the traditional way. And then you don't actually need the content, but it's kind of that discipline.
of sitting down and learning that is the skill that you're going to take into life. So I think there are people out there that would argue doing that exam preparation style of education does teach you those things. But I think when we look at the engagement levels, that isn't working. So I think actually getting those skills in a different way and students more engaged just makes more sense. Yeah.
And I think also nowadays school and further pathways, they're changing so quickly and they're evolving so rapidly. You don't have to go through to Year 12. You can leave at Year 10 and do a trade. You can do Open Foundation. You can do TAFE but also still go to school. We offer the IB program so you can do the International Baccalaureate Diploma program, the Careers program, all your HSC pathway. And I think
Some teachers may be tunnel vision on the HSC, we're gonna get you the best mark that you can get, but at the end of the day, I think there's so much more to it than just your mark. I think it's really important that when students are at school, teachers focus less on, okay, they need to learn this to get the grade, they need to say, or have the mindset of they need to learn this to gain the skill rather than focus on the grade.
Louka Parry (13:53)
Mm.
Yeah. Yeah. That's
such an interesting, cause I take, I take both your points and, Flynn to yours, which is the argument that to really achieve well in school, you have to be displaying some, some positive dispositions to learning. And I a hundred percent agree with that. And in the same breath, I also think, you know, when you look at valedictorians and where they go often it's, you've had to play the rules so tightly that
you're more likely an achiever than an explorer because you kind of, Chelsea, that's why your response was interesting too. know, the first, I would take the first one, which is kind of be bit more life ready, you know, cause we know that only one in four students in Australia use the ATAR to get into university. And yet the system as Sir Ken Robinson said, if you step back from a school, looks like it's trying to prepare professors, just create professors. And of course we don't, not everyone needs to be a professor, you know, because not you.
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (15:01)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Louka Parry (15:05)
You know, so we end up kind of going down this pathway and then there's a, it's just a really interesting field to work in. You know, I hope both of you consider kind of your roles as what they might be in the future. And then I guess it's my question, you know, at, gosh, at 17, I was just very open to what my life might be in terms of my career. What are you both kind of reflecting on knowing that, can give us, paint us a bit of a picture of what it means to be 17 again, because.
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (15:30)
Thank
you.
Louka Parry (15:32)
You know, for us adults, we're like, you'll be fine. You'll
work it out. But I think sometimes there is this like, my gosh, I need to know, I need to choose now. Otherwise I get the wrong subject selection. And then there's kind of this sometimes artificial pressure, but give us a bit of a sense, paint us a picture.
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (15:47)
think there's a bit of stigma around what you have to do. When we were doing subject selections last year, I think most of us were under the impression that the subjects you pick will determine what degrees you can get into or what you can't get into. But it's only after learning for ourselves that you don't actually, I could go, I don't do legal studies, but I could still go into law through a bridging course. So I think.
There's a lot of miscommunication in the sense that there's so many careers now that don't even require an ATAR, especially with social media, that's created a whole new world of careers. And for some people, that's right up their alley. And they're at school, they're doing all the right stuff, but it doesn't actually matter to them. So I think that's when the more skills-focused education comes into play, because...
Louka Parry (16:41)
Mmm.
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (16:43)
it will equip us for life and like you said at the conference something about I don't know if it's our half or two thirds of the careers that exist today won't exist by the time we're going to be applying for them so I think rather than focusing on the stepping stones to achieve one career build the skills so people can have any career.
Louka Parry (17:03)
Mmm, beautifully reflected.
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (17:07)
I'm just going to quickly go outside and ask everyone to be quiet because all the...
Louka Parry (17:11)
Don't worry, Chelsea, do your thing. Flynn, while she's doing
that, why don't you tell us, for you as well, have you reflected on what pathways you are being drawn to?
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (17:25)
think I am someone who I know where I want to go and I know what career I want to go into but I think generally that is not the sense. I think most people...
aren't confident in what they want to do after school. I think there's a lot of anxiety about that. think a lot of people feel like they should. But I've found a lot of, even though I think I know what I want to do, I know that it's not going to be a linear pathway to that point. And I know through like looking at people in the kind of jobs and roles that I would like dream about have done so many different things to get there. So I'm as much as I know what I want to
I'm not like...
so focused on making sure I'm doing one thing after another to get there. And I think it's important that as you go through life, you kind of just see how things go and don't have to stay on the same thing that you wanted to do. Because what I want to do now isn't what I wanted to do a year ago. So I think allowing yourself to evolve is really important. But I don't think that a lot of people our age are that kind of.
stress-free about it. And I think also...
Louka Parry (18:44)
Yeah, yeah, right.
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (18:46)
for young people to have the understanding that you don't have to work towards one career and stick to that. Nowadays it's so much more common to go to uni, get a job, get your degree, but then like 20 or so years later you can do an entirely different degree and change your whole career. It's not just you go to uni, you get a degree, you stick to the one thing. So I think and also teachers preparing students for that.
Most of us have been or still are under the impression that after you graduate you go to uni, you get your degree and then you have your career and that's kind of your career for life but that's not the case. You can have five careers at once if you really want, you can do three throughout your lifetime, you can do ten. So I think having the understanding that...
Like Flynn said, it's not a linear process. It's going to be quite up and down, but that's okay as well and not everyone will have the same journey.
Louka Parry (19:44)
Yeah, absolutely. is quite sophisticated ways to think about your futures. Thank you for sharing them both. yeah, especially that whole piece of the career web, Chelsea, that you're speaking to the career ladder, I think is, is disintegrating around us. And this whole idea of the efficiency paradigm, we call it, which is, I did my degree. Now I just like you make myself efficient from what I learned once is finished. It's really.
consistent, continual learning. And it's one of the reasons that I call this the learning future, because I think the future we can't predict really, as a futurist, it's very difficult to predict because of black swan events and randomness, but we can absolutely make ourselves anti-fragile, which is to think, okay, I can be a great learner and someone that creates value. And if you can create value and you can learn, you're going to be absolutely fine. Flynn, to your point, you'll be able to just be like, oh, cool.
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (20:21)
Mm.
Louka Parry (20:42)
And you know what's funny? Like this whole, one of the worst questions I think to ask our young people is what do you want to be when you grow up? Because I mean, can be so many things.
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (20:49)
Yeah. They can be so different things. Finally, you know.
As a 17 year old, like when you're talking to anyone, a parent's friend, a teacher, that's the first question they go to. And for some people that don't, think Flynn and I both have pretty clear visions of what we want to do, but that's not the case for everyone. So to be getting asked that in almost every conversation you have with an adult, it's a bit daunting because then this pressure builds up and you're like, I have to know what I want to do. But you actually don't, we're only 17. Hopefully we have many, many, years ahead of us in our lives.
Louka Parry (20:59)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Totally.
Yeah.
entirely.
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (21:22)
And I think something
relating back to what you said about learning and the ⁓ Adventure mindset The big a big thing I would want people to continue throughout their life is keeping a learning mindset You're always learning and it doesn't just stop After you get your degree when you're working. I think people still need to be learning and still be curious about the world
Louka Parry (21:32)
Explorer mindset. Yeah. Yeah, same. Yeah.
Yeah, it's great. One of my favourite answers, by the way, to what do want to be when you grow up is happy.
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (22:01)
Bye!
Louka Parry (22:02)
It's just kind of like, well, yeah, because that's probably a pretty good success metric because that, to your point, Flynn, like...
And as someone that's just turned 40, you I'm someone that reflects on, I'm still working it out. I mean, the, the like CEOs that I speak to or the deputy secretaries, they'll be like, yeah, I'm not sure. You know, so there, the whole idea that someday you just arrive is a, arrival fallacy as, as I might call it. Right. So it's just a, it's not true. So enjoy the constant arriving process, which to your point, it's just like a learner mindset.
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (22:29)
Yeah.
Louka Parry (22:37)
What did I learn today? How did I grow? How did I expand my knowledge, my awareness, my ability to see and connect? I do want to ask you about your views on technology and kind of the two different types, you know, one being social media, you're in the middle of it. And we have lots of data that shows, you know, that young people like to use social media to connect, but also they feel sometimes forced to use it because it's where people connect and people don't really like Snapchat.
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (22:37)
Yeah.
Louka Parry (23:07)
⁓ what are they called? You know, when you're trying to stay in contact every single day, you know, like, yeah, streaks, right? Like, you know, when you actually ask, he's like, God, it's exhausting, but it's kind of, these are all, there's going to be built. So I wanted to give us a bit of a view on, social media. What do you think's happening for young people today with that? Where, what are people using today? And then, and then I'm going to ask you about AI.
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (23:15)
Drake.
Louka Parry (23:33)
because I think that's a really interesting one as well and what your views on that might be. But yeah, what's kind of the current social media experience for you both?
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (23:41)
I I mean, I'm on social media, many platform travel. The main three, I'd say a TikTok, Snapchat and Instagram. I think they're the big three. ⁓ I think comes back with social media comes good and bad. It definitely helps me connect with my friends a lot easier. And I'm someone that really does thrive on social connection. love talking to people and communicating and being with people. That's something that I really enjoy personally.
But I think with Snapchat, this is one thing I really dislike about Snapchat. Most of the time when you're snapping your friends, you're not actually having meaningful conversations. And I'm a big, I'm very big on sending videos and voice memos and sending chats and that because I like to keep the conversations going. I'm not a big fan of just snapping people all the time. So I think that's probably a negative because whilst yes, technically is connecting us, we're genuinely connecting.
Louka Parry (24:27)
Love it.
It's not depth
of connection. ⁓
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (24:40)
Yeah, and Instagram obviously I think it creates a lot of difficulty for young people to navigate themselves and the world around them because you have things like Photoshop and it creates all of these expectations and...
Louka Parry (24:56)
100%.
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (24:58)
Social media really is a highlight reel for everyone's lives and I think that can weigh on young people because they're like, well why aren't I like this? Why isn't my life like this? Why can't I achieve these grades? Blah, blah, blah. So I think it's really important for people to have the understanding, okay, this is the highlights of someone's life. They're not sharing the bad to them. And I do the same. Like, I don't post things, like if I'm upset, I'm not gonna post things where I just had the worst day. No, I'll post, I'm on holidays, I'll post a photo. So I think it's just.
Louka Parry (25:27)
It's the same on LinkedIn,
Chelsea, by the way. LinkedIn is exactly the same. Look at this conference that we did. Yeah. 100%. Thanks for the perspective. yeah, yeah. It feels really complex, more complex than it used to be. I think, ⁓ especially with filters and you know, the Snapchatification or the, the kind of, yeah, whatever they call it, Snapchat face, you know, this whole idea that it's just constant, you know,
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (25:29)
Yeah, LinkedIn, and I actually love LinkedIn.
Louka Parry (25:58)
pressure to always be perfect. I mean, it's exhausting for all of us in some ways, right? Flynn, what about your reflection on social media, this moment?
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (26:09)
Yeah,
I agree. think Snapchat's really weird. Like when you look at it from an outsider perspective, because you're just kind of sending just photos of like yourself, just like, like some people send to like hundreds of people. And it's kind of crazy. I'm someone who, how I use social media, I think Snapchat, I only use it like with my very close friends that I would talk to on the daily anyway. So that's kind of more of a communicating thing. ⁓
whereas other people and it changes as kind of you get older like when you first get snapchat and then to kind of where we are now but like some people just like mess some people have people on snapchat they don't even know yeah and they just talk to them and they have this
great connection online but if they were to see each other in person they wouldn't say anything. So it really takes away from the authenticity of it because they're not actually having the face-to-face connection that they do online. Yeah absolutely. It's all like even Instagram is really interesting when you talk about that as well.
Louka Parry (27:01)
Yeah.
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (27:16)
And like people will post things and you might not be close to them at all. And then they'll like comment. Yeah. We're best friends. Commenting's a really big thing. It is a really weird and complex world where it just kind of like dramatically changes like dynamics compared to what they would have been without.
Louka Parry (27:22)
Yeah.
Interesting.
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (27:38)
social media absolutely I know from like for me if I'm like scrolling on Instagram I'll have like mutual friends so friends that are friends with my friends and I'll comment on all of their posts because I honestly feel a bit guilty if I don't I'm like like I should probably
Louka Parry (27:39)
Mmm.
Yeah, that's
an interesting kind of social pressure that's designed into the platform, right? Like even the like number of likes, you know, which is these things were intentionally designed. It's so interesting. had someone, ⁓ we're the CEO of the Atlanta Medlin Foundation on the podcast recently. And I sit on the board of that children's charity and we do a lot of work on e-safety. And she just talked a lot about big tech and how they kind of capture, capture.
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (28:00)
Yeah.
Louka Parry (28:22)
sometimes like childhood, but capture all of us in terms of those social pressures. ⁓ On that point, and I want you to, yeah, give us a sense on this. I saw a paper recently which showed that large language models have passed the Turing test, which basically just means they, we can't tell if we're talking to a robot or a human being anymore, right? And now it's like, we're getting to like photo stage, then we're getting to video stage where deep fakes are like almost so high, you can't.
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (28:27)
Yeah.
Louka Parry (28:52)
can't even tell. ⁓ But the thing that really kind of hit me was that in that study, the humans that were participating preferred chatting with the large language model, i.e. the robot, than with another human. And it's because those companion bots, as they're now called, are really good at making us feel seen, but they're not human. So what do you think about the... because at the moment we're having this
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (28:53)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Louka Parry (29:20)
conversation on social media, I think in maybe two years time conversations on like, well, how's your companion bots? And it's like character.ai replica.ai, you know, which is you've got these virtual friends, but they're not real friends. mean, it's just, I don't even know where we're going to head with this, but have you got any kind of views at this point about AI?
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (29:40)
I think that's
really weird. I totally agree. I understand that they might feel seen but they're actually not in any way because they're just telling them what they want to hear. They don't know what it's like to feel emotions so they're going off what they think is right based off all the information they store not what actually might be right. So I think it's a really tricky thing to navigate because
It is changing so quickly and we don't know what it's going to be like in a week's time. Like at the rate things are growing, anything could happen next week with AI. We don't know, but I don't know. That's really weird. I actually hadn't really heard of companion bots. I hadn't heard, but that's
Louka Parry (30:13)
100%.
Hmm. All right, cool. ⁓ it's in
some ways it's just curious. Yeah. Yeah. Cause the other, the other thing is the metavert. I don't know you heard of the metaverse. You remember in the whole idea was that you would go online and you'd put on your VR headset and you would hang out with your friends in the, in a, in a fully digital world, the metaverse, right? And, know, gaming is kind of halfway there, but I'm not convinced that human beings really want to.
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (30:30)
It's really weird.
that.
Yeah.
Louka Parry (30:53)
being a VR headset for, you know, five hours a night, but I don't know.
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (30:57)
No, I
don't think of anything like Well that's right, we don't know. You kind of just like with all of this have to see where it goes and see how the kind of human population react and see where things go and adapt really. And I think humans should probably stop looking for an answer to it all.
Louka Parry (31:15)
Mmm. Mmm.
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (31:23)
and just focus on learning how to adapt to it because realistically it's not something we can solve or we can fix or we can make go away. It's part of our world now and that's how it is. So I think rather than thinking, okay, how can we fix this, blah, blah, just think how can we adapt it?
adapt to it. How can we integrate this in our lives without it taking over but using it to actually benefit our lives rather than be consumed with it? It's interesting because humans are always like human advance and wanting to go to the next bigger and better thing and you have young people like Chelsea who say like we just need to adapt and then you have older people who are like it's all changing too much. Yeah. So it's like there's not really a right or wrong is there?
Louka Parry (31:40)
you
There's definitely what's so interesting today is that the generation in which you're born has a greater influence on you than your family. And that didn't used to be the case. And I think it's because the horizontal connection with your peers and your friends is so much stronger through technology than it used to be when you were at home having dinner around the dinner table. So I think that's a really interesting point for someone in education to look at the intergenerational nature. And one of the greatest
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (32:29)
Thank you.
Louka Parry (32:36)
strengths, but challenges we have is that your teachers, none of them are Gen Alpha, because that's you. They're all like millennials, maybe a few Zelenials and Gen X's, maybe a few Baby Boomers. Do know like the really different experiences than what we're seeing emerge now. But I think there's a wonderful creative tension in all of that as well. ⁓ I've got a final question for you both. It's been a great chat, you know.
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (32:53)
Yeah.
Louka Parry (33:03)
And it is so good always to talk to young people, someone that usually works with school principals and teachers. It's so good to speak to the two of you. Tell us like, if you had to leave us with one insight for us to keep on our minds, the people that have listened to this conversation, what's the thing you want to remind us of that we should keep in mind in our work in education?
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (33:10)
Yeah.
⁓ I would say that I think that schools are not made for teachers to teach, they're made for students to learn.
and mine would be to see me before you teach me. And there are our messages from the conference. ⁓
Louka Parry (33:49)
Yeah. it was, and it was great because, know, agency, which I think is that whole, what's the, how do we know learning has taken place instead of has teaching taken place? You know, the difference between those two things, Flynn cause when I was a classroom teacher, I would teach a great lesson and I would feel really good about it. And then I'd be like, actually, you didn't want to learn anything. Or was it just me feeling good about the teaching?
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (34:14)
Yeah. ⁓
Louka Parry (34:15)
So that's, it's
flipping it to be a learning organization, which I love. And, and your piece, Chelsea, which again, I think you've, you've put really beautifully. It's the relational, see me before you teach me. And I think it's just such a good message for us to remember in our work is that we are, we work in human systems and schools increasingly will be about the human side if we're doing them well. Because with the technological revolutions, I think even things like knowledge, like basic content knowledge, you know, how do we discern, how do we belong?
How can we stay curious? These are the themes we talk about all the time here. So thank you for jumping on for a podcast before your school day. ⁓ It's been a delight to meet you both and to hear from your perspectives, obviously to really enthusiastic young people. And I just wish you all the best as you navigate and adapt your way forward.
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (34:56)
Yes!
Yes.
Well, thank you so much for having us on. Thank you.
Louka Parry (35:15)
absolute pleasure.
and if, ⁓ if anyone's interested, check out the grammar grapevine podcast, which
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (35:20)
Follow us on social
media and on Spotify or Apple Music wherever you get your podcasts will be.
Louka Parry (35:28)
I like that. You've got the podcast
here. Thanks so much, team
Flynn Thomas & Chelsea Cox (35:32)
Thank you
