Presencing and the Power of Attention with Katrin Kaeufer S9E3 (123)
In a world where our attention is constantly commodified, how do we reclaim the agency to direct our awareness toward what truly matters—for ourselves, our students, and our communities?
What would it take to lead not from past patterns, but from the future that is already beginning to emerge through the relationships and spaces we co-create today?
📘 Episode Summary:
In this deeply thoughtful episode of The Learning Future Podcast, Louka Parry is joined by Dr. Katrin Kaeufer—author, educator, and co-founder of the Presencing Institute at MIT. Together, they explore how the emerging future can shape our present actions through the practice of presencing, a method that integrates mindfulness, leadership, and systems change.
Katrin shares personal reflections on stepping into novicehood, how embodiment reshaped her approach to teaching, and why reclaiming our attention is the defining challenge of our time. The conversation navigates the shift from ego- to ecosystem-thinking in economics, education, and leadership, and invites listeners to imagine regenerative futures through practices that deepen awareness and foster relational trust.
Whether you’re an educator, changemaker, or systems leader, this episode offers insight into the practices and paradigms that are shaping the future of learning, work, and social transformation.
About Katrin Kaeufer:
Katrin Kaeufer leads the Just Money Program at MIT’s Department of Urban Studies and Planning (CoLab) and is Managing Director of the Presencing Institute. Her research and teaching focuses on leadership, organizational change, finance and participatory action research. She founded the Leadership Academy of Global Alliance for Banking on Values (gabv.org). Recent publications include: in 2025 „Presencing. 7 Practices for Transforming Self, Society and Business“ co-authored with Otto Scharmer and in 2013 Leading from the emerging Future (Berrett-Koehler Publishing); in 2021 Just Money. Mission-based banking and the future of finance. (MIT Press). Katrin holds a doctoral degree from University Witten/Herdecke, Germany.
🔗 Resources mentioned:
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[Transcript]
Louka Parry (00:08)
Well, hello everybody and welcome back to the learning future podcast with me, your host, Louka Parry. I'm very excited for the conversation today because I feel like the ideas that we're going to cover are ones that are so prescient for this moment in time. My guest today is Katrin Kaeufer and she leads the Just Money program at MIT's Department of Urban Studies and Planning. And she's also co-founder and managing director of the Presencing
Institute. Her research and teaching focus on leadership, organisational change, finance and participatory action research is very deep. And recent publications include Leading from the Emerging Future in 2013, Just Money, Mission-based Banking and the Future of Finance, and the book that I have in my hand, which is called Presencing, Seven Practices for Transforming Self, Society and Business, which was co-authored by Otto Schama.
I'm also a co-founder of the Presencing Institute. Katrin, wonderful to have you with us.
Katrin (01:07)
Wonderful to meet you. Thank you for inviting us.
Louka Parry (01:11)
look, I'm such
a fan of this work. And if there's ever been a moment where it was more needed, I mean, we say that all the time because of our bias to the present moment, I guess. But I am very excited to kind of learn with you through this conversation. And as we always do here on the learning future podcast, my first question to you is what is something that you are learning at the moment that is emerging for you?
from the future waiting to be born is probably the language you might use. tell us.
Katrin (01:38)
Yes, it's a language we are using. So maybe I
answer that more on a personal level because obviously everything I'm doing professionally is very challenging in this moment of disruption. So personally I decided to pick up piano at my age, which is not easy. And when I had my first recital, I was the only adult among...
of small kids and I knew my piece perfectly well. And I'm giving a lot of public talks. I'm standing in front of MIT students almost every day. I sat down on the chair, piano chair, and I had a complete blackout. I didn't even know where the sea was. And all the other kids, you these kids, you know, they jumped up and picked up their piece, had their ice cream and left.
Louka Parry (02:07)
And I'm a lot of talking. ⁓
know, these cats, know, they're like, doesn't know. Next to the peas, has their ice cream and left.
Katrin (02:28)
And the learning
is I couldn't rely on my intellect. I had to access and trust my body because you can't think music. You have to be in your body and flow with and go with this. So that was a very embarrassing moment and intense learning moment.
Louka Parry (02:33)
Mm.
That
is so, love it so much, Katrin, because it picks up so many themes that we talk about here. mean, I'm fascinated by embodied cognition anyway, and the body brain contract, which we are still, you know, learning so much about in any, any given year. and that we often forgot about in most of our traditional education systems, you know, the fact that we have a body. and it's wonderful. I have this piano just here in my office, actually, next to find the middle C for, but it's a,
Isn't it just a wonderful thing as an adult, how rarely we actively choose to step into novicehood, you know, to be what it really means to be a learner, which is outside our zone of comfort. And these are things we ask our learners to do every day, of course.
Katrin (03:28)
apps.
So this experience completely shifted also how I teach because I started to realize things that seemed to be so clear and easy for me might not feel the same from the other side. So that's one big learning. And the other one you pointed at, embodiment. And we work a lot in the Presencing Institute with a dancer, Arwana Hayashi.
Louka Parry (03:36)
Mm.
Hmm.
Katrin (03:55)
who developed something that we call social-presenting theater. now, I I lead the Just Money program at MIT, so I work with bankers. And now I'm even including this embodiment work in my work with bankers when it's about, you know, what does it mean to be a leader?
Louka Parry (03:59)
Yeah, that's
Right.
with embodiment work in
Katrin (04:16)
And I only work with bankers that use finance as a tool for social and ecological change. So there are impact-focused people. ⁓ to... So, Awana often says, you know, we just use our body to carry the head around. And, you know, as you know, our work is really about how to connect to the future in the moment when it's emerging. And the future...
Louka Parry (04:16)
And I only work with bankers that use finance as a tool for social and ecological change. So there are impacts for those people. to, so, Alana often says, you know, we just use our body to carry the head around. Yes. And, you know, as you know, our work is really about...
Katrin (04:45)
starts in our gut. You know, it's only the second step that we can articulate this intellectually. So listening to what your body already experiences is a really important point.
Louka Parry (04:59)
I love this. Let's let's drop into more of this Catherine. Tell us more about present sing as a concept. Some of our listeners will have heard of this work before and some may have even engaged in of the ULab or other processes. But how does it unlock
deeper awareness and kind of this piece around transformative leadership. And, and I love that you're coming from kind of, would say like a, let's call it an adjacent domain of economics, you know, but some of our work here at the learning future, we talk about the three E's, is economics, ecology and education. And how, again, it's a holistic picture of each of them influences with the other. So tell us more.
Katrin (05:39)
So maybe, you know, because we start off with personal stories, maybe I do another one here. So when I was still little younger and doing my PhD, I lived in Germany and back then Germany was divided, East and West, you know, you got killed when you tried to whatever. So I went with a professor and a student group to East Germany. I grew up in the West and we met in the basement of a church with opposition leaders.
Louka Parry (05:43)
Ciao!
Katrin (06:04)
And the professor, Johann Galtung, he is one of the founders of Peace Research, he put a wager on the table and he said, by the end of the year, the wall will be down and we all bet against it. And six months later, the wall came down. And that was a turning point in my personal biography because I thought, how come that we all had the same experience, the same conversations, the same data?
Louka Parry (06:20)
And that was a turning point in my personal biography. How come that we all have the same experience, the same conversations, the same data,
and he could see something that I couldn't see? And that's, in a way, what Presencing and Theory U is about. It's not about, let's...
Katrin (06:32)
and he could see something that I couldn't see. And that's in a way what Presencing in Theory U is about. It's not about, let's fantasize
Louka Parry (06:42)
fantasize what happens, what's the future in five years. It's a question of what can I see and sense today from the future that's emerging. So the core idea is you can learn from the past, which is great.
Katrin (06:42)
what happens, what's the future in five years. It's a question of what can I see and sense today from the future that's emerging. So the core idea is you can learn from the past, which is great, you know, I look at what I've done, I improve my behavior.
Louka Parry (06:59)
I look at what I've done, I
improve my behavior. But you can also learn from the future that's emerging, where the beginning is already here. And the term, presencing, is the term that we use that combines presence and sensing. So what do I sense today? What can I bring into the present today that's...
Katrin (07:02)
but you can also learn from a future that's emerging, where the beginning is already here. And the term presencing, it's a term that we use that combines presence and sensing. So what do I sense today? What can I bring into the present today that's the
potential of the future? And in terms of learning, mean, all the teachers that are listening, you will...
Louka Parry (07:24)
the And in terms of learning, I mean all the teachers that are listening, you will
Katrin (07:31)
have this experience when you are with a student, you can just modify behavior, but you can also create spaces where a student can step into their potential. So what the future is calling this human being to be and to do. And
Louka Parry (07:32)
have this experience when you are with a student, you can just modify behavior, but you can also create spaces where a student can step into their potential. So what the future is calling this human being to be and to do.
And we talk a lot about AI and can AI, you know...
Katrin (07:51)
we talk a lot about AI and can AI do everything that humans do.
A lot, yes, but this is something that AI cannot do. Co-create, you know, our potential.
Louka Parry (08:07)
I think you said so beautifully in the book. It's something like when you match in attention with intention and agency. And I just think about all of our work in education as a whole is like that is so resonant and hence the need for high agentic environments for clear intentionality.
And the attention is kind of the scarcest and rarest for, I think of Simone Ville who said, attention is the rarest and purest form of generosity. And I think it's never been more true really than this current moment where we are, I would say under constant bombardment and attack to the level of our brainstem for our attention so that it can be commercialized. So I'd love you to take us into that.
Katrin (08:37)
How beautiful.
Louka Parry (08:54)
world a little bit more, you know, this piece around how is democracy, truth, human wellbeing, even optimal wellbeing or learning being undermined right now from your vantage point, you know, at the Presencing Institute.
Katrin (09:06)
Yeah.
So I think you're spotlighting the biggest issue of today. So we have a trillion-dollar industry, mostly located at the West Coast of the US, that's ⁓ commercializing our attention. And it works. It's a big business model. And...
Louka Parry (09:19)
that's commercializing.
Katrin (09:27)
commercialization of our attention is negativity and polarization and disruption. Because this is where our attention gets hungry or stays with something. And they know this, they did all their research. The result is mental health issues and a destruction of the social fabric of our society, of our communities, of our families.
Louka Parry (09:34)
This is where our attention gets hungry or stays with something. And they know this, they did all their research. The result is mental health issues and the destruction of the social fabric of our society, of our family. So ⁓
Katrin (09:55)
The biggest, as you said, the biggest challenge of today is to,
Louka Parry (09:55)
the biggest, as I said, biggest challenge of today is to...
Katrin (10:01)
you know, retake our attention, maybe. And I mean, we all have this individually. It's not just our students, it's us as teachers as well. And to connect that with who we want to be, which is what you said, our intention. And
What we've learned in our work is if you come to this point where you're aware of your intentions, so where you redirect your attention to what you want to do, which is already a big job, you find your voice, you connect to who you want to be, and if you not immediately combine that with action, it goes away. So in a core, these three terms describe a process that we call
Louka Parry (10:23)
So when you redirect your attention to what you want to do, which is already a big job, you find your voice, you connect to who you want to be, and if you're not immediately combined that with action, it goes away. So in a core these three terms describe a process that we call
Katrin (10:43)
Theory U because it's
Louka Parry (10:43)
theory view because...
Katrin (10:45)
depicted along a U. And Theory U is basically three things. So it's a method, a process that you can apply, how you design a class, how you design an intervention in an organization, how you design an innovation process, how you design just a meeting. You can... So it's a...
Louka Parry (10:47)
And theory U is basically three things. So it's a method, a process that you can apply how you design a class, how you design an intervention.
Hmm.
It's
a five-step process that we've described. It's all creative comments on our website. But it also describes different qualities of attention, how you pay attention. So you are now listening to me here in this work, in this podcast, or a few here on the other side of this video. So you can listen by saying, yeah, this is an MIT person.
Katrin (11:07)
five-step process that we've described, you know, it's all creative comments on our website, but it also describes different qualities of attention, how you pay attention. So you are now listening to me here in this work, in this podcast, or you here, you know, on the other side of this video. So you can listen by saying, oh yeah, this is this MIT person,
they're very technical, da da da.
or you can listen, we call this downloading, so you listen from what you already know, or you can open up your mind, you become curious, you know, factual listening, or you move your attention into the perspective of the other person, which we call empathic listening. So I might not agree, but if I put myself into your, it's an amazing human capacity.
Louka Parry (11:47)
or you move your attention into the perspective of the other person, which we call empathic listening. So I might not agree, but if I put myself into your, it's an amazing human capacity.
Katrin (12:01)
The student might act up or disagree, but if I put myself into her or his perspective, I might understand where he's coming from or she.
Louka Parry (12:01)
The student might act up or disagree, but if I put myself into her or his perspective, I might understand where he's coming from.
Katrin (12:12)
And the last quality is this co-creative process where like a jazz ensemble where you're listening to yourself while you're listening to... So that's the thing. The process is a step-by-step process.
Louka Parry (12:13)
And the last quality is this co-creative process where like a jazz ensemble where you're listening to yourself while you're listening to... So that's the second... So the process is a step.
Katrin (12:27)
It reveals different qualities of attention. And lastly, we also think maybe it's a movement because if you look at the regenerative movement of people who want to live in a different way,
Louka Parry (12:27)
It reveals different qualities of attention. And lastly, we also think maybe it's a movement because if you look at the regenerative movement, you can want to live in a different way.
Katrin (12:40)
so there is something out there that resonates with a lot of people.
Louka Parry (12:41)
There is something out there that resonates with a lot of people. It certainly resonates
with me, Katrin, and I'm glad you started to talk to those levels of listening, because I recall on my journey as an education leader, coming across just that, very easily, the four levels and getting to the generative space of open will, and kind of it almost shocked me to the point of like, how often am I cultivating?
Katrin (13:02)
Hmm.
Louka Parry (13:09)
conditions within myself and within with my interlocutor to actually get to a generous space. And I feel for the last 10 years, it's it's been something I've been actively cultivating and and isn't it also like to truly listen to another person because our attention is so stretched in all these different ways. It's just such a rare act. And I would say most teachers
Katrin (13:10)
Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep.
Louka Parry (13:33)
If you speak to them today, they feel, you know, often they're very purpose aligned, but they feel overwhelmed with the sheer responsibility that has now they feel and has been placed on them, especially in the West, you know? And so this idea of just sitting in circle or in front with another person allowing things to emerge, you know, instead of having very clear agenda, we're to get to this bit and then...
Katrin (13:39)
Absolutely.
Louka Parry (13:58)
You know, and so it kind of cuts off the possibility realm. And as a futurist, I'm really curious about what's possible, not just what the problems are, because the problem framing will limit the innovation suite or the possible co-created, you know, responses.
Katrin (14:11)
Yeah,
resonates a lot with me what you were just saying. I mean, teachers are fighting, mean electronics, this whole mental model of teaching for testing, input-output model, know, get the kids in, you you put something in you, which is the opposite. And I think our systems are failing.
Louka Parry (14:28)
Yeah.
Katrin (14:34)
Honestly, I don't know the Australian educational system well, but we recently heard a conversation within the OECD system about the state of education. And one number that shocked me was that someone said, it's not public, but we know that 30 % of our students don't attend classes anymore. 30 % are not showing up. We know this through phone records, et cetera.
Louka Parry (14:43)
Yeah.
Katrin (15:01)
So nobody reports this, but it doesn't work for kids anymore. And this is a bigger topic, how to transform the educational system. But teachers are carrying this, and it's put on them, and it's a system failure. It's an institutional failure.
Louka Parry (15:03)
Hmm
This is a bigger topic. Yes, yeah.
I fully agree with that. I think I'm one of the theses that I see is the engagement slash disengagement epidemic will force the hand of systems because young people will say, you know, I think they'll just be such a shift within the internal mechanisms. And I think we are seeing that, of course, we're seeing that emerge now in different ways. And as you speak to, I don't think a back to basics.
approach is going to work because it hasn't so far. think there needs to be forward towards something that's deeply human with belonging and curiosity and discernment and embodiment agency at its core. call them our ABCs, know, they're kind of the design conditions in our view for a great educational experience. I'd love you to take us into this space around, you know, the social field, because as you spoke to, you know, the idea that
in all systems thinking and systems awareness work, the idea of the iceberg, we see the top, we see the results, but what's underneath, and this seems to be a really significant reflection of this work, is to pay attention to notice the things that go unnoticed. So can you take us through what that means? How do we pay attention to the social soil instead of just the plants that we're trying to grow?
Katrin (16:32)
Social stuff. ⁓
So the idea actually Otto Schama developed, my co-author. So he grew up on a farm and his father had transformed the farm into regenerative farming 70 years ago when his father was very young. And as children they were, he and his siblings, they had every Sunday a walk across the field with his father.
And his father put his hand into the field and then looked at the soil and talked about that everything that's visible to the eye is a result of something that's not visible, that's in the soil. And when we worked here at MIT, we learned about this iceberg model, the symptoms, the structures underlying the system thinking. And then Otto at one point said, it's more than that.
you know, the reality we co-create that's visible is a result of something, you know, he called it social field and social soil. And I really love that. That was really the spark for this book. So the core idea is what we co-create collectively as a result of the quality of our awareness and relationship. And on the one hand, this is a very radical idea because
Louka Parry (17:24)
The reality we co-create that's visible is a result of something, you you call it social field and social soil. And I really love that. That was really the spark for this book. So the core idea is what we co-create collectively is a result of the quality of our awareness and relationship.
And on the one hand, this is a very radical idea, because
Katrin (17:52)
in our culture, we value everything that's tangible, measurable, visible. On the other side, it's also a very simple idea because it's our everyday experience. If we don't get along in a family, things don't work. So if you say something to me and our relationship is strained, I'm immediately, what is he saying? If our relationship is of high
Louka Parry (17:53)
in our culture, we value everything that's tangible, measurable, visible. On the other side, it's also a very simple idea, because it's our everyday experience. We don't get along in a family. Things don't work. So if you say something to me and our relationship is strained, immediately, what is he saying? If our relationship is
Katrin (18:17)
quality, I say, you know, this was really strange, you know.
I felt really offended. Can we talk about that? And this is not just true in small social fields. It's also true for... So I work a lot with these impact businesses, impact ⁓ banks. And there is a general alignment. We use money to address social and ecological issues. And just this alignment often creates a social field in these...
Louka Parry (18:23)
And this is not just true in small social fields. It's also true for... So I work a lot with these impact businesses, impact banks. And there is a general alignment. We use money to address social and ecological issues. And just this alignment often...
creates a social field.
Katrin (18:49)
So I just talked to one of the CEOs, Brock Bank in Bangladesh. They invented a process to give loans to illiterate entrepreneurs. So this you can do when you have an intention and it works. So in other words,
Louka Parry (18:49)
I just talked to one of the CEOs, Brockbank, in Bangladesh. They invented a process to give loans to illiterate entrepreneurs. So this you can do when you have an intention and it works. So in other words,
Katrin (19:08)
trust is efficient. And what happens right now is there's a destruction through social media.
Louka Parry (19:10)
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. ⁓
Katrin (19:17)
of our collective social field and democracies cannot survive if there's not a certain level of solidarity, of trust, transparency. And if that doesn't exist, you know, our democracy. So I think it works. It applies to all levels
of our social endeavor.
Louka Parry (19:41)
Endeavor. I'm still reflecting on that what you said. Trust is efficient. It's beautiful. I've never heard it put that way. And of course it is. And in fact, it's and you write this in the book, of course, one of the things that separates, you know, us homo sapiens sapiens from other species is our ability to create trusted networks through governance of strangers we might never meet. And so
And when that starts to break down as it is seemingly happening globally now, certainly in the economic sphere, as you could speak to, with the tariffs and other kind of nationalist movements popping up, that does break down. And then how on earth can we build things together without that field that's become toxic in some ways?
Katrin (20:24)
I've worked for a long time in this financial field and inefficiency and issues are very high there. So the question is, what's our theory of change here? How can we transform large systems that are dysfunctional? I think it requires culture change. I don't think it can be...
Louka Parry (20:28)
and issues are So the question is what's our theory of change here? So how can we transform
systems that are dysfunctional.
think it requires culture change. So I don't think it can
be top down. I think it requires a culture change. in the book we point at this idea of islands of coherence. So this idea that you create these islands of coherence that are functioning and then connecting.
Katrin (20:45)
I think it requires a culture change. And in the book we point at this idea of islands of coherence. So this idea that you create these islands of coherence that are functioning and then connecting.
But this is, I think, the biggest question of our time. So what's our theory of change here? How can we form social systems that are collapsing?
Louka Parry (21:04)
But this is, I think, the biggest question of our time. So what's our theory of change here? Yes.
The Islands of Coherence concept I love. I love it because it also feels like an emergent phenomenon. can't, they... It's not as if you can just easily hierarchically dictate. In fact, it's impossible to do so. You know, this idea that we can only ever prescribe port-à-faire fair to good, but then after that you have to professionalise and...
go into the of the complexity space, especially when we're dealing with human growth and development or complex systems. And so I'm really interested in that. And a mantra that I like to reflect on is find the others. Katarina, it's such a simple kind of find the others. And it's because when you can do that, you can start to form these, know, whole holocratic sometimes, you know, swarms where there's people moving in a similar direction to your example.
of some of the social impact are into investors and bankers, you know, we're all heading this direction. Possibility seems to play in the space in between. one, one other question I have is, is this move from ego to eco? And I think it's again, something that just really hardwired in when I first came across the work, you know, and so I'd love you to talk more about that, like the role of ego and modern leadership and how we go from the kind of the
ego driven decision making to more holistic ecosystem thinking. How do you see that playing out in your work?
Katrin (22:25)
So this idea or concept moving from ego to ecosystem economics really stems from a deeper look at our economic system. in a way, every economic activity is based on I do something for you. So if I build a table or bake a cake and I eat the cake,
Louka Parry (22:35)
Interesting. Right.
Katrin (22:47)
It's not economics. It only becomes economic in the moment I sell it to someone, which is really interesting because economics means I do something for someone else. And in that moment, you
have a coordination issue. How do we find each other? And there are basically three answers. One is hierarchy, top-down, state-driven, China, Russia. Free market, answer number two.
Louka Parry (23:04)
And there are basically three answers. One is hierarchy, top-down, state-driven, China, Russia. Free market, answer number two,
Katrin (23:14)
capitalism, the European model free market but regulated is the third answer. So these are the three core concepts and they mixed and they are blurring boundaries between them. But what we are seeing today is something very interesting.
Louka Parry (23:14)
capitalism. The European model, free markets, but regulated, the third answer. So these are the three core concepts. And they extend their blurring boundaries between them. But what we are seeing today is something very interesting.
Katrin (23:31)
It's an emergence of businesses that want to make profit but want to use their entrepreneurial activity.
Louka Parry (23:31)
It's an emergence of businesses that want to make profits, want to use their entrepreneurial activity
to address issues and challenges. So in Germany last year, 80 % of all startups were impact-driven startups. Wow.
Katrin (23:41)
to address issues and challenges. So in Germany last year, 80 % of all startups were impact-driven startups.
So all the banks I work with, you know, so it's not like, I don't want to make profit. It's like, I want to make profit, but I don't maximize profit when it's in conflict with impact. So what's the difference between the other models and this model is an inner shift.
Louka Parry (24:01)
Right.
Katrin (24:08)
which means, yeah, it's an inner decision that I say, I want to be in business, you know, I like entrepreneurial, know, innovation, risk taking, moving into something new, but I do this with an intention.
And that's in a nutshell what ego to eco. So it doesn't mean ego is bad. Ego is our creativity, our strength, our...
Louka Parry (24:25)
And that's in a nutshell what ego to ego. So it doesn't mean ego is bad. Ego is our creativity, our strength, or
Katrin (24:35)
I bring something into the world. But I no longer do this in my small ego world, but I
Louka Parry (24:35)
you I bring something into the world. But I no longer do this in my small ego world.
Katrin (24:41)
this from a larger perspective. Does it make sense?
Louka Parry (24:44)
It absolutely does. How do you feel that? Because there's wonderful, there's some fantastic graphics in this book, you the idea. And you talk about kind of education, health, business, finance, technology, and moving from industrial through sustainable to regenerative. And that's very aligned with my work and our vision as well. So how do you see the kind of
that transition playing or how would you define those transitions? Because, know, I think it's if we get movement across all of them, all of a sudden, the world is different. You know, as I think you're right, you know, if everyone were to do this tomorrow at different levels of leadership, the world would shift on its axis immediately in a positive direction.
Katrin (25:23)
Yeah, and there are numbers supporting that this is where people want to go. I think we also refer to the Human Development Report last year that 63 or 67 % of all people globally want to sacrifice part of their income to address climate change, but only believe that 43 % would do the same, which is like...
Louka Parry (25:33)
Yeah.
Yes,
Katrin (25:50)
Yeah, we are a movement, but we don't think we are one. But what you are pointing
Louka Parry (25:50)
yeah
Katrin (25:55)
at is, with all these methods and tools that we develop, they are all creative commons. We founded an NGO, the Presencing Institute, and we started working in all kinds of sectors. And we noticed a pattern. So that's what you just pointed at. So for example, agriculture, the mainstream agricultural approach is industrialized efficiency agriculture.
Innovators do sustainable agriculture, organic food less bad. Cutting edge innovators go towards regenerative agriculture, food as a path towards healing. We worked in education and we saw mainstream is teaching for testing, input output. Innovators move towards what's the student's journey. Cutting edge, it's...
Louka Parry (26:18)
Innovators do sustainable agriculture, organic food less bad. Cutting edge innovators go towards regenerative agriculture, food as a path towards healing.
Innovators move towards what's the students journey, cutting edge,
Katrin (26:42)
What spaces do we need that students step into their potential? Then we worked in health. I'm not going through all of this, but just the last
Louka Parry (26:42)
what spaces do we need that students step into their potential. Then we work in hell. I'm not going through all of it.
Katrin (26:51)
one. Evidence-based medicine, mainstream. Cutting-edge is patient journey. Innovators go towards patient. Cutting-edge is what are the sources of healing? Then we thought, oops, so there is a pattern here across.
which when you go back to this idea of the soil is what we see on top of the soil. And we realized this move towards the regenerative parts are first, what first is very interesting that the more you move towards that, the more they are connected. How can I be healthy if my food is not healthy and my education and my work? So you move out of the silos to something that
Louka Parry (27:18)
Hmm.
Yes.
Katrin (27:31)
moves closer to each other. And then we realize, and that's the core of this book, you need different practices in order to make these shifts. So similar to how you upgrade your electronic device, we argue you can upgrade social fields. And for that you need tools and methods, and that's the practices that we refer to.
Louka Parry (27:47)
Mmm.
I love that. I really love that. Yeah, especially that there is something about I think you said it so beautifully before it's it's actually kind of it's quite simple, like it's an intuitive knowing that we know this to be true. But then somehow intellectually, we craft externalities and silos and, you know, the mind trying to control instead of the deep realization that it's all we're all part of something and you know,
That's why I love our work in education, in the human system space, because everything makes an impact on everybody else, you know, it's always the case. And to think, you know, that we don't focus on vitality in education systems is kind of bizarre that we didn't talk about sleep or exercise or nutrition, really. You know, it doesn't make any sense to me anymore that that would be the case.
Katrin (28:38)
that we ignore what every teacher brings love. mean teaching is really about connecting and we do this testing and these results but at the end of the day it's my relationship to the student and this relationship between students that creates the space for learning but we ignore that.
Louka Parry (28:43)
Ugh.
I put so beautifully, Catherine, you know, when we zoom out enough and one of the questions that I saw it and I'm like, oh, that's a classic resonance with me or what is it that Jung says, know, axel, you know, meaningful coincidence or synchronicity, you know, I always ask in a lot of the work we do, our leadership development work, like what's yours to do uniquely and that and that's here in the book. And I was just like, oh, that
really does. know, lot of teachers would say it's to help well, at the deepest level, it's to help young people love learning or even love themselves in a way they can see who they might become. I mean, that's the foundational layer of purpose. There should be anyway, not any of the other layers of success, which, you know, matter to differing degrees, I guess. Yeah.
Katrin (29:40)
Yeah.
And this love yourself is not an ego love, it's just taking care of yourself.
Louka Parry (29:57)
Yeah.
What's a love that the process that life is, you know, the gift, you know, it's, it's a Katrina often reflect this kind of often there's only two ways to think about the world that nothing is a miracle or everything is a miracle. And, know, we woke up today, like that's kind of amazing. I'll take that as the fact we exist in this arc, in this lifespan with the cosmic arc being so long and us being so insignificant by comparison. It's just quite.
Katrin (30:09)
That's it.
Okay.
Louka Parry (30:24)
I mean, to me, that's remarkable, honestly. And we forget, we forget all the time. kind of, you know, we become distracted by other things and forget to really notice where we are and what we're doing. yeah. So I've got a question about the practices and then a final question for you. So this is, this can feel quite conceptual for people, but what is, what are some of the practices that, that you, you use in this work?
that help us to cultivate that social soil or to create better relationships or better attention that you can share with us.
Katrin (30:52)
mean, the listening example that I just gave is a very easy practice. Observe your own listening and be an active listener, which is an enormous gift to someone else. In the work that we are doing at the Presencing Institute, we developed a whole number of tools and methods that are all on the website and they are all creative comments, everybody can see that.
Louka Parry (31:01)
Hmm.
number of tools and methods that all on the website and they are all created in comments, everybody can see that. Just
Katrin (31:15)
a radical other method that the dancer Arowana Hayashi developed in her work is called stuck, where you think about a situation where you're stuck and you use your body to express the stuck. And she does this a lot in schools with students.
Louka Parry (31:16)
a radical other method that the dancer, Awana Hayashi, developed in her work is called stuck, where you think about a situation where you're stuck and you use your body to express the stuck. Interesting.
Katrin (31:36)
And then you don't tell anyone what it is. You just let the other person say, I see, I feel when they look at you.
Louka Parry (31:36)
And then you don't tell anyone what it is. You just let the other person say, see, feel when they look at
you. And she says, the body doesn't want to stay in a stuck. The body moves out of the stuck. So then observe, how does your body move out of the stuck? And then describe what they see. And this gives you clues.
Katrin (31:45)
And she says, the body doesn't want to stay in a stack. The body moves out of the stack. So then observe how does your body move out of the stack. And then the observers describe what they see. And this gives you clues for how
to move out of a situation. And you can do this individually, as a group. So these are tools I wouldn't do on a first day with my bankers.
Louka Parry (32:06)
and you can do this individually as a group. So these are tools I wouldn't do on a first date.
Katrin (32:14)
We need a few modules to get there.
Louka Parry (32:15)
I two models to get there.
Katrin (32:17)
So there are all kinds of tools you can use, intellectual tools, embodied tools. We have practices where we use objects. We call this social technologies and I believe this is the biggest field of research for our future. Social technologies are methods and tools that allow us to
Louka Parry (32:21)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Katrin (32:39)
the quality of a social soil or relationships. And the most important part about these tools is that they are transparent and then you you step into them maybe I should say in freedom so you don't want to manipulate. So these are tools that allow us or you or whoever is in the space to advance your practice. So you don't want
these tools to be like, let's jump through the fire and then you feel this or what, you know, this is really about being transparent and clear and experiment and observe. We often say, don't interpret, just say, I see, I feel, and take, you know, start with the data.
Louka Parry (33:23)
Fantastic. I love this. It feels to me in service of our capacity to notice.
Katrin (33:29)
Exactly.
Louka Parry (33:29)
And the
more capable we are of noticing the better change makers we are and can become because we see, you know, I think to your point, you know, um, the, uh, the founder of peace studies that you, uh, Johan, think his name was that you mentioned, um, you know, what could he see in? So yeah, like cultivating our capacity, see is so important, especially if we want to think about how we might change the parts of the world that we.
do not want to live with anymore. Just beautiful. ⁓
Katrin (34:02)
which reconnects
your point at the beginning on attention. So these are all methods that help us to break through these patterns of just downloading and direct our attention to where we want to pay, you know, to put our attention towards. So it's really about our attention and all these devices are poisoning this.
Louka Parry (34:11)
Mm.
to where we want to you know, to put our attention to work. So it's really about our attention and all...
There's this and there's some really interesting work. Jonathan Heights, the anxious generation is one that's been kind of well looked at here in Australia. And we have some interesting policies that the national government is putting in place around social media. It's just so interesting to see if this business model, how it shifts over the next decade, let's say in the AI wave that now we are kind of well and truly into what implications that has for us, but also
we either run our tech or it runs us. Another favorite mantra of mine. And it's like, am I consciously choosing this or am I mindlessly, is it choosing me? Such an interesting moment for us all.
I just love the quality of questions as well that I think is, know, Catherine, if we can help our learners, your MIT students, you know, I'm sure many of them running banks, you know, and so they're not necessarily young, but it's how do we cultivate the quality of questioning? I so think about our work in schools and if our young people are seeking the right answer all the time, where do we kind of cultivate the?
the ability to navigate into ambiguity and uncertainty by wayfinding through asking ever better questions. I mean, it feels almost like what life might be for. It certainly is what makes you a career oriented person as well. What's the kind of a reflection you have about that with the people you work with?
Katrin (35:41)
I mean, starting off maybe with, you know, I have two kids and now grown ups, but every child has only questions. If you pass a fence and there's a little hole in it, there's not a single child that will not immediately look into the hole and try to figure out. So I think curiosity is something we naturally have as humans. So it's... ⁓
Louka Parry (35:58)
So I think curiosity is something we naturally have as humans.
Katrin (36:04)
in nurturing and fostering our curiosity. And it's simply fun. I think this is who we are as humans. We are curious. We want
Louka Parry (36:05)
it's nurturing and fostering our curiosity. And it's simply fun. I think this is who we are as humans. We are curious.
Katrin (36:16)
to know. But our cultures often don't accept open questions. There's always this desire to know an answer.
Louka Parry (36:22)
is always this desire to know and answer. mean,
our schooling system, input-output model, the better you.
Katrin (36:27)
schooling system is this input-output model, the better you
respond to these questions in the correct way, the more successful you are. So it starts with all of that. But I experience with my students that often it doesn't take a lot to open up curiosity. And it's still there. I don't think it dies even after how many years of schooling.
Louka Parry (36:34)
the more successful you are.
I experience with my students that often, it doesn't take a lot to open up curiosity. And it's still there. I don't think it dies. How many years of schooling?
Katrin (36:54)
I think it's still there.
Louka Parry (36:55)
Yeah, beautiful. It's like the kind of core part of what it means to be human, perhaps. It's a curiosity. Final question for you, Catherine. What's a take home message for our listeners that have taken, used their attention and intention to listen to this podcast and their agency? What would you say to them that they might hold in mind as they do their work?
Katrin (37:14)
I mean, I don't feel I have any advice or I think every educator and every listener probably knows things much better than I do. But maybe closing with where I'm struggling or experimenting at the moment is this question of islands of coherence. So what spaces does the world need right now? So, you know, is it in my community? Is it in my work?
Louka Parry (37:29)
Hmm.
Katrin (37:39)
With the Presencing Institute we are trying to experiment with creating also larger spaces where people can step back, find their voice, step into their potential. I think we have to learn or relearn that. think a lot of regenerative cultures know how to do this and we have missed this board a little bit. But this is my question at the moment.
Louka Parry (37:51)
I think we have to learn or relearn that. think a lot of regenerative cultures know how...
I this forward a little bit, but this is my question.
Katrin (38:04)
what spaces locally and globally do we need
Louka Parry (38:04)
What spaces, locally and globally, do we need?
Katrin (38:08)
to articulate who we want to be? mean, the broadcast here could be one of them.
Louka Parry (38:09)
Beautiful.
It certainly seems to be, you know, it's kind of small way that I contribute to Islands of Coherence, Katarina's to bring wonderful people like yourself on to talk about paradigm shifting change and how it starts with presencing. And it's such powerful work. Thank you for the work you do and the impact it's had on many, many, many people, myself included. And thanks for joining us for the Learning Future podcast too.
Katrin (38:35)
Thank you for having me and thanks for doing this podcast. I listened to a few of these interviews and loved it. Thank you.
Louka Parry (38:41)
Thank you.
