Reimagining Learning with Purpose, People & Possibility with Sunanna Chand S9E2 (122)
How might we design AI not just to personalize learning, but to truly make it personal, enabling each learner to discover and design their own purpose?
What would professional development look like if it mirrored the learning experiences we aspire to give young people—human-centered, delightful, and deeply relevant?
In this rich and forward-looking conversation on The Learning Future Podcast, host Louka Parry is joined by Sunanna Chand, Executive Director of the Reinvention Lab at Teach For America. Together, they explore the future of learning, focusing on how artificial intelligence (AI), human-centered design, and learning ecosystems can unlock new educational possibilities.
Sunanna shares insights into Future Shock, a project-based program that equips young people with the skills to design their own futures—combining interest-based learning with strategic uses of AI. She also reflects on the need to design professional learning for educators with the same joy, relevance, and depth we desire for students. The conversation touches on AI’s potential as both a partner and a risk, advocating for technology that enhances human connection rather than replacing it.
Together, Louka and Sunanna unpack how we might move from standardized education to personalized, purpose-driven learning while acknowledging the real constraints educators face. They stress the power of networks, radical imagination, and equitable design in reshaping learning for the 21st century.
About Sunannan Chand:
Sunanna Chand is the Executive Director of the Reinvention Lab at Teach For America, where she leads future-focused R&D efforts to reshape education through design, equity, and innovation. With a background spanning learning ecosystems, human-centered design, and system transformation, she previously led Remake Learning, fostering district-level change through powerful cross-sector networks. A passionate advocate for learner agency and equity, Sunanna explores how tools like AI can support—not supplant—human connection in education. She is a national voice for reimagining what high-quality, personal, and purposeful learning can look like for all young people.
Stay Connected with Sunannan Chand:
Learn more about the Reinvention Lab
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Share your thoughts by visiting www.thelearningfuture.com
Tune in to be inspired, challenged, and reminded why love truly is at the heart of learning.
[Transcript]
Louka Parry (00:08)
Hello everyone and welcome back to the learning future podcast. I'm your host, Parry. It is so exciting to be here today with Sunana Chand. she's the executive director of the reinvention lab, which is kind of the teach for all R and D for how do you, how we think about the future of learning, how we think about the way that we might structure our systems and you know, what does the classroom of the future look like? how do we support educators and young people to kind of co-design? So. She has an amazing background, which you can find in the show notes, much of, but she also ran remake learning for a period of time as well, which is a wonderful kind of ecosystem approach. So how do you do learning, not just in different institutions, but actually in a really connected way, in a student-centered way, a deep human-centered design way. Nana, it's so good. I've been trying to track you down for so long. It's great that we get this time together. Thanks for being with us.
Sunanna (00:56)
Thanks for having me, I'm so happy to be here.
Louka Parry (00:58)
All right, let's, let's get into it. You're a phenomenal learner. You're an amazing educator. Tell us what is something that you're learning right now.
Sunanna (01:06)
I'm learning so many things. But one thing that sparked into my mind when you asked that question is I'm really trying to learn a lot about not just, I know there's the conversation about AI is everywhere and everyone's talking about it. And we were just at conferences where it was the kind of main topic of conversation. And what I've been trying to learn is,
Louka Parry (01:22)
Yeah.
Sunanna (01:25)
One of the things that are not in the education conversation on AI, but are in conversations in tech spaces that are in conversations in places where I'm not, where I'm not. And so I, for instance, the big thing that's been really fascinating me over the last couple of weeks is a reading. I don't know if you've seen this report, AI 2027, but it's basically a future forecast for AI that was developed by folks who used to work at OpenAI, now they're at Berkeley, but it's taking. as good future forecasting does taking current data and the best of current data that we have and then using that current data to build as accurate as possible forecast. But actually what it is is science fiction, right? About what the next few years could look like.
Louka Parry (02:05)
Yes. Right.
Sunanna (02:08)
really good science fiction, I mean, going back to all kinds of things, but I nerd out on things like Octavia Butler is actually quite predictive, right? So I've been thinking a lot about particularly artificial general intelligence and agentic AI and how currently we're thinking a lot about AI literacy as it exists for the current form of AI, which is generative AI and mostly kind of chat bot based.
Louka Parry (02:15)
Hmm. Hmm.
Sunanna (02:32)
And I'm starting to really turn my head, attention, thoughts, learning towards an AI literacy that will be required for actually an entirely new generation of AI that is quite hard to conceptualize outside of science fiction. And also I think even harder to try and tactically think about what will this mean for learning, for the world that young people will grow into, for the type of skills that they'll need and require, and then how they will interact with the world. so Louka Parry (02:46) Mmm.
Sunanna (02:59)
That's the thing I've been geeking out on recently.
Louka Parry (03:01)
Well, I'm glad you have been because it's such a, you know, it's like when you reflect on, when you're in a moment, you don't know it's a moment. You know, this seems to be always the case. So people go like, that was the X era or that was the Y era or those were the times of, know, and, know, we just don't know it until we have the benefit of hindsight. And so we kind of feel like we're in this really enormous moment. Of course, you and I go to a lot of the convenings where there are people that are really on the edge sharing.
Sunanna (03:08)
Yeah. Right.
Louka Parry (03:26)
kind of their work and you're kind of astounded by it. You know, often we are, we're lucky enough to be able to lift our gaze. It's kind of the roles that we play soon. I know I feel, uh, and the AI piece, know, it equally like, it's so exciting and so terrifying simultaneously. There's a paradox to it all because it just challenges so many of our existing mental models. And I don't know if you saw the HPR article that came out, you know, I think in the last couple of weeks, talked about the number one use case currently for AI being companion bots.
Sunanna (03:54)
Yeah.
Louka Parry (03:55)
And like that kind of devastates me at one level. like, because the studies we know we had, we had Isabelle Howe from the Stanford accelerator for learning on, we're talking about this, you know, that like, is that the best, is that what we really want? Like, can't we just build companionship between humans or, know, like design AI so that it augments that process? Like, what did you, what do you think about the different scenarios? You know, like, are you, are you an optimist or a pessimist about this? Like, where do you sit on this? How would you articulate it?
Sunanna (03:58)
You Yeah. I think that, I don't know if I fall on an optimistic pessimistic side. think AI is here. It's gonna grow exponentially. There's no, it is part of our reality and will become even more part of our reality in different ways that again, at this point, we can only have foresight around and predictions around. But I do, one thing that I think a lot about and I think the reinvention lab has done some interesting work on is how you use AI as a way to not just reinforce the current system, which waves of technology and disruption have actually done in our education system, right? Do we have a fundamentally different education system because of the internet? Do we have a fundamentally different education system because of smartphones? We have a fundamentally different society. But I think you and I would both agree that we don't necessarily have a fundamentally different system.
Louka Parry (05:07)
Yes. Mmm.
Sunanna (05:12)
So I'm thinking a lot about how this tool, which is going to exist, how now is the moment, to your point about hindsight, that we need to be able to design ways to create the system that we want. And think I could be a really powerful tool for that. don't think there's enough. There are lots of discussions in the field about. Well, obviously we need to, like now is the time to make sure that we're creating the most human skills, right? Because the skills that can't be replicated by AI. And those are conversations for folks in the field like us who have heard those conversations again over multiple ways of technology. And so because I'm generally an optimistic person, I'm like, well, I think we can do it now. And here's a couple of examples. One is we run this, we're about to be in our third year of a started as a.
Louka Parry (05:44)
Hmm.
Sunanna (05:56)
really small prototype and play testing and now has evolved into a more substantial pilot that's running 16 cohorts this summer called Future Shock. what Future Shock is is important, but I'll be fast about it. It's basically how do you develop the, through project-based and interest-based learning, develop the executive functioning and design skills of young folks to be able to actually design their lives and be able to take steps towards features that they want in a very ambiguous and nonlinear career landscape.
Louka Parry (06:13)
No.
Sunanna (06:22)
I mean, gone are the days when you can just present a linear path and then the young person could have that linear path for their career. And so what are the skills then necessary to be able to design, I mean, going back to the d.school and other things, I mean, design your own life, right? And so what's interesting to me about Future Shock, among many other things, is that since the beginning, we've used AI, but use AI very strategically. And what I mean by that is in a cohort size is about 20 young people and
Louka Parry (06:34)
Yes.
Sunanna (06:48)
Most of the experience is not really technological driven unless their project is technological, which often it is. We spend the first few days in deep human centered community building and kind of interest generation. Cause sometimes it's hard for young folks if they've never been asked in a school setting to understand what their interests are. And then AI is used for like a few hours in a AI tool we have called Project Launcher that helps them plug in what they've learned about themselves, about their community, about their interests and turn it into
Louka Parry (07:02)
Yes. Yeah.
Sunanna (07:15)
possibilities for interest-based projects that they might pursue in the time period and then provide some first steps on how to get started on that project. And what's interesting about that is in the past in project-based learning, could be really hard to get 20 young people to a project idea really quickly. mean, that is a lot of human work to be able to individually coach all those folks. And so what it actually does is it unlocks in a super quick way the ability for young folks to have individualized authentic projects. And that unlocks the ability of a teacher to not be either running around like a chicken with their head cut off or have to do one project for the whole cohort of the whole class. And allows them to really step into this kind of facilitator, guide on the side role with technology, for that technology to help facilitate that work. We did a similar thing and then it allows like, right, these like authentic, rigorous, like amazing projects that again, happened mostly off of technology.
Louka Parry (07:42)
Yeah. Mmm.
Sunanna (08:08)
But the other thing that is interesting, like at ASCGSV, we did this session where we had people use AI to generate a bunch of small missions that would help you practice a durable skill. And my colleagues, Joy and Elizabeth, chose communication. I think it was communication or mindfulness. I can't remember what the durable skill was that they had practiced, but the AI gave them a mission to go stare into a stranger's eyes for 60 seconds, and they didn't know each other at the time. And they were like...
Louka Parry (08:08)
Yes. Amazing.
Sunanna (08:34)
It was super intimate. was super, you know, like we should do this with our partners. It was this really intense experience. And so it's getting me thinking about how AI could actually be used as a tool to create more human experiences and prompt people to step outside their comfort zone and take risks in those human experiences. And so I think there's way to shape it if we design it the way that we, we, you know, we want for the future to be.
Louka Parry (08:57)
That is so, that's really powerful. love, I love the examples of Future Shock and the missions idea as well. this, you know, my, my thing is what's the per like the purpose orientation is what we need to stay fixated upon is my sense, right? Like what's the learning design. And it's why, of course, I would say both of us are really, ⁓ you know, framed the role of an educator is as a learning designer and a kind of experience deliverer, guess.
Sunanna (09:08)
Absolutely. Yes.
Louka Parry (09:21)
But it's not, it's not transactional. It's not, it's just, I instruct and you listen, there's a real shift, this guide on the side piece that you talk to. Like, how do you see across the kind of vast network that you're involved in? Like some of that happening, cause I imagine there's different levels of the system that are needed. You know, a classroom educator can do this today, but within the constraints they have, a school might look at, you know, having its own pedagogical model, which
Sunanna (09:21)
Yeah. Yeah.
Louka Parry (09:46)
brings in something as a tool and then you can go up to the systems level as well. What are you seeing emerging? Because I think those are two great examples. And sometimes it's like the implementation dip or the learning pit for teachers that are largely running around now with their heads cut off and doing wonderful work that they can. Where's the L &D aspect to this, the professional learning aspect to this for educators?
Sunanna (10:06)
Yeah, well, for those that don't know Teach for America, I should say that the Greenvention Lab is, as Luca, you said, is Teach for America's R &D engine, future of learning R &D engine, which means that we design offerings at the intersection of the future of learning, right? Where is learning headed? What should young folks have in a 21st century and 22nd century economy and society and their learning experience? And also, What is the intersection of that with what Teach for America is obsessed with and has always been obsessed with, which is getting the highest quality talent in the places that need it most. And so we think a lot about talent development, this exact thing you're talking about, right? And I think a lot back to, again, if we're just thinking about AI, I think a lot back to this Walton Foundation report that came out a year ago that was something like, then it was like... 79 % of teachers are using AI and 25 % are trained. I'm kind of obsessed with that gap because that means that there's just a lot, there's a lot in between that gap, right? And I also, think from a learning design standpoint to your point, we're both nerds on, know, on.
Louka Parry (10:54)
Yeah. Yeah.
Sunanna (11:08)
21st century, deeper learning, whatever kind of learning design you want to call it. And I think also about how much of that training is about, again, kind of reinforcing structures of the current system, instead of using AI to be able to transform the system. And so that's a lot of what we do is try and think about both how do we think about the real constraints and problems that folks are trying to solve in the current system. Because the reality is teachers are doing incredible and heroic things all of the time. I mean, to be able to just function in a system that is hard to function in a lot of times. And so I have to just give every credit to every teacher out there who's doing the work right now. And I think for those of us who have the luxury and the privilege to be sitting in seats like you and I, to be to be thinking at a field level perspective.
Louka Parry (11:42)
Yes.
Sunanna (11:55)
I think part of what we need to think about is like the questions that I feel like I'm not saying anything profound or new. It's like teachers are overwhelmed. They've got a lot going on. AI is just another, and advances in all kinds of things that are happening in a really rapid scale are just adding more and more things to the bucket of things. I think the conversation on AI a lot is like, well, AI is going to make teachers so much more productive that it's going to like, it's going to open up time for relationships and different learning styles and pedagogical models. it's like, maybe again, I thought that about smartphones. I thought that about like Excel spreadsheets when I was a teacher and it didn't quite materialize AI is different than an Excel spreadsheet. But,
Louka Parry (12:25)
me.
Sunanna (12:30)
I think a lot about what are the ways that we make... There are things that people sitting in our seats will say are really important. The thing that I always think about is, going back to Adrienne Marie Brown and emergent strategy, is a fractal theory of change and longing moves towards longing. Meaning like... If we can design things, and again, we're an R &D lab, so we design and we build. If we can design things, and again, we design in the realms of teacher sourcing, matching, development, that's Teach for America's bread and butter. If we can design things, let's talk about teacher development in particular, that's so delightful, useful, desirable for teachers, then longing will move towards longing. They'll tell their friends about it. They'll want to do it again. They'll want to have these more experiences. They'll want to prioritize it over the million other things that they have going on in their lives. And that's always kind of what we're hoping to do is not just say, well, let's add 15 more professional development days or 15 more hours or cram more into what you're trying to do, but actually say, how do we make this delightful, useful, fun, interesting for you to be able to also open up the creative space and energy to be able to be open to something new? Because that also takes...
Louka Parry (13:26)
Mmm.
Sunanna (13:37)
space, just like to be able to kind of open yourself to new opportunities and ideas and the new ways of being, thinking, learning. And so part of it just creating that space. So I feel like that was kind of a ramble, but...
Louka Parry (13:49)
Damn good ramble.
Sunanna (13:50)
think that's how I think about it.
Louka Parry (13:52)
Yeah, what comes up for me as you speak, Sunana, is what you've described for the educator, you know, to design for delight or wonderment, you know, or encounter. I love the word encounter. It's beautiful, you know, to have encounters in our life, learning encounters. And of course, this is the fractal aspect, I think, that's so interesting to the way systems could work, which is that everything we've spoken about is also the experience we want our young people to have.
Sunanna (14:02)
Mm-hmm. Yes. That's exactly it.
Louka Parry (14:18)
And so it just, it just blows, it's kind of some, some, it's just, it's so interesting how misaligned it can often be. And then, and of course we're all responsible for it. We become the teacher. And then, and I, and I've seen this many, many times in my work when I've been working with educators, there's some kind of veil of, of the professional that sometimes comes on and becomes the greatest barrier, which is I'm going to put a 20, 20 slides together on a big PowerPoint to tell you about my project. And yet that as a pedagogue, that person I've seen in the classroom and they're fantastic classroom practitioner, super engaging and I'm just curious about like, what changes internally for us in those different contexts, you know, and you know, a context is Queen is something that I really reflect on, you know, the closer to a learning experience or to a human being we are, the more important context becomes the further away, the more we can look at universal design principles is my view. So I just, I just think that's, you know, the joy. And like, if, an educator is joyful in their work, I would argue they've got to be a pretty good practitioner. Even if there's, you know, they're not as pedagogically strong, there's like an energy to them. ⁓ you know, we've spoken with the MIT crew from theory, you about, know, generative social fields and all this kind of work of, you know, creating the culture of a classroom. This is of course what quite a lot. did it South by Southwest to architecture, architecture, you know, all this kind of interesting stuff. So.
Sunanna (15:22)
Yeah.
Louka Parry (15:36)
Um, so that's what comes up when you're talking, I'm just like, yeah, there's something to that. It's like, what if we were to design adult professional learning in the same way we would love our young people to really engage with them rather than a click through model or something that is too conceptual or abstract. Yeah. It's something I reflect on quite a lot.
Sunanna (15:55)
It's something that we the Reed Invention Lab care a lot about is experience design, learning design, making sure that any learning design that we have for adults is exactly the type of thing we'd want young people to have. And I think it is incredibly important. And I think what I've also come to realize and respect over time is that It's also true that, you know, my way of doing kind of like a facilitated design experience might be actually great for one person and not a 20, 20 slide decks and listening to a lecture might be really great for another person. I think something, something that I really learned as a, Also when I was, I as far back as being a teacher was, I think I came to the realization in my moment being a teacher of like, man, I played this game of school really well. I can actually like listen to a podcast or a lecture, you know, this type of thing and kind of, it's not the best way that I learned, but I can, I can compartmentalize and learn a lot from just listening for a long period of time. And what I came to realize and what brought me to thinking about education in ways that were, what we used to say at remake learning is engaging and relevant. again, know, deeper learning, learning, education, any of those things was the idea that like, this realization to myself that I am a small fraction of all learners. Like I am the tiniest. piece of that. And I think often we talk about differentiation in terms of academic standards, right? We're differentiating and scaffolding based on the academic level of this person. Or we think about learning types, right? I'm a visual learner, I'm a physical learner, I'm a whatever. The best learning environments that I've seen allow for each and every young person
Louka Parry (17:16)
Yeah, good point.
Sunanna (17:26)
or adults to your point to be able to experience apply that learning in a very relevant way that works for them and have the ability to have pieces, whether it's in one learning experience, maybe not, and the ability of an educator to be able to do that learning design in a universal design way over the course of the entire learning experience. the reality is that's really, really hard to do. Like there's a reason why that's not done all the time. it's also like... Again, I think AI could be extremely powerful to help us think about that. Both analyze kind of the learning styles of folks that are in front of us in a learning design and be able to make it a lot easier to design really incredible experiences, word, encounters for young people. And it's way beyond like what often AI is used for right now, which is, you know, generate a lesson plan or generate differentiated questions based on level or generate, you know, like that kind of thing. There's a higher degree of personalization and differentiation that I think AI could be a real support to teachers and educators of all kinds around that. Again, if we design it that way, we make it a possibility.
Louka Parry (18:29)
Hmm. That's it is that's so it's so true. I want us to just double click on this one, one bit that I find I'm so fascinating. It's the, you know, designing the tools that reinforce the existing structures and system versus tools that transform. And of course the tool is kind of the same. It's just how it's oriented. ⁓ and to your point on personalized versus personal learning, you know, there's one thing that, a friend of mentor of mine, Dr. Stephen Harris.
Sunanna (18:47)
Yes. Right.
Louka Parry (18:55)
talks about the difference between personalized and personal learning. Of course, personalizing learning is really just saying, we're going to get to the flag, I've put the flag over there, you can get there however you want, but we're still going in that direction. Whereas truly personal learning is kind of a decoupling. It's very kind of challenging to make it happen is to say, where's your flag? Like, where do you want to place your flag? And this is, and that's, think, that's one of the ways that I think about differential.
Sunanna (18:59)
Yes.
Louka Parry (19:21)
that AI, my thesis is the same as yours, it sounds like that with this technology, if deployed well, we can absolutely end up where you have a school of 800 students and every single student is having a unique experience of learning because we've been able to augment the educator effort and the kind of human effort with the students themselves to do that. But often it's the structures or the systems, the timetable, they're like,
Sunanna (19:35)
Right.
Louka Parry (19:46)
the year levels or grades, you know, instead of stage, you know, there's, there's kind of existing mental models, which got like, that's what a school looks like. And it's worth, it's pretty challenging in the Australian context, I would say, to change those models, you know, in like, in a way that might even be considered in my view, like aligned with the latest learning sciences or human centered design principles. We're kind of always trying to like backwards map into an existing structure. You know,
Sunanna (20:05)
Right. Hmm.
Louka Parry (20:12)
maybe turns slightly like the Titanic. What would you, how do you reflect on that bit? Because it feels like it's a change process of sorts.
Sunanna (20:21)
Yeah. Well, I think what's hard, this kind of circles back to the beginning of the conversation because it is really hard. Hindsight is 2020 and foresight is scary and hard. I mean, so my reflection is.
Sunanna (20:37)
The reality is not everyone in the United States right now gets the same quality of educational experience. So when you say in a school of 800 students, 800 people will get a different experience, you say that in a positive light, there are many schools in which that is true and it is not positive. And so there's...
Sunanna (20:58)
There's this hindsight and this realization that everyone deserves a standard of a high quality education. We at Teach for America, our vision is that one day each and every young person will have access to a high quality, excellent education. I think the paradigm that we can begin to shift into is that is that there is a standard for rigor and a standard for preparation and the learning actually can look very, different. The actual implementation of that across can look very, different. And actually the types of things young people, the bar for preparation can look very, very different in this rapidly evolving technology economy society, right? And I think as the bar, You know, over the last, since we've been able to have the entire world of knowledge in our pocket since 2007, I've always thought, like, should we be, to what extent should we be teaching things that are easily searchable on Google? To what extent should we, you know, how do we think about... I'll say it this way. We have a definition of learning innovation at the lab that thinks about status quo versus the future of learning along five different continuum. So it's basically like who, what, when, where, why, how. Like is the why of learning changing? Is it just to like take a grade and go to college? Or is the why a much more broader why, which gives you a much more broader set of outcomes? And then like is the.
Sunanna (22:17)
what you're learning in education. Does that also need to change because the why is changing? And then does the how change? And then does the who you're learning from change? And all of these things start to lead to a different paradigm. And I think the paradigm that we're going into is a high quality education doesn't mean that there is a single standard that everyone gets necessarily. I haven't totally worked this out, but it's like.
Louka Parry (22:25)
Cool.
Sunanna (22:43)
You can have a school where there are 800 people, and those 800 people are all learning in a very different kind of personal to your point way. And that personal way still retains a extremely high bar for expectations and rigor, even if it looks different person to person. And I think that's actually hard to conceptualize, right? Because we live in a world of standards-based education. We live in a world of grades and test scores and all of these things that are so standardized. And the idea of AI being able to unlock that paradigm shift, I think, is really, really interesting. And even hard, like you see me working through it, I'm like, yeah, there's probably people that are a lot smarter than me that are gonna figure this out, but I'm like. We have lived in standard-based accountability in the United States for so long. And so it's so easy to, to your point, kind of be pulled back into that instead of being able have the radical imagination to be like, how do we both ensure that every single young person has a rigorous, high-quality, amazing experience that prepares them for the world and for life and for their own personal joy and thriving? And how is it possible that that looks actually totally different for every single person? is super interesting.
Louka Parry (23:52)
Yeah, I nerd out on this all the time. now as you can imagine, um, and of course the examples that I see globally, and I'm sure you would see through your network too, uh, so often ones that begin outside an existing system and then the system kind of celebrates them and then starts to bring them into the center. I know one of the, I don't know, I'm curious about your view on this, but I'm not so sure that like large bureaucracies.
Sunanna (24:07)
Right. Right.
Louka Parry (24:21)
with all the well-intended great people that are in them, are really able to do innovation well. Because it comes from the edges and then moves into the sides, is what I've learned from all my conversations with more eminent, smarter people than me. And so it's kind of, if you're designed for the extreme, you can almost design for everybody. It's kind of one of the really interesting things that I often reflect on. And so even this idea of, and it's why we're so bullish on futures and foresight. and helping educators and leaders understand that within the K-12 sector, because then you can kind of like, this is extreme language, you know, decalcify yourself and your mental models that have, you know, we've all been so institutionalized. I think it's just a given. And to your point, you know, like how much change has really occurred over the last few decades. Even, you you talk to really experienced educators like my mom and you know, she, She started teaching in the eighties. and you know, there's, there's just waves that don't ever seem to really shift at, at the really kind of, structural level, kind of the core aspects. there's why, what, when, you know, how I do think there's something about the power. I think power shift is really interesting to me in particular. You know, thinking about who owns the learning is a great question. think Alan November, I heard from Alan November a long time ago, you know, it's like. Who's learning, who owns it? And if it's a control and command system or school or classroom, well, the teacher owns it. And one of my favorite quotes from Dylan William, who's been on this podcast too, he's like, schools are places where young people go to watch adults work really hard. And you know, that's like, that's just really so resonates with my experience. So hard and yet.
Louka Parry (25:53)
So how do we shift from this idea of the standards are command and control of their achievement standards. need to achieve the same as others versus our standards are standards for rigor and expectation and support, but that we actually honor the true expression of human potential, of human essence, right? Which is no two young people I've ever encountered are the same, you know, and talk to parents, they're like, kids are completely different, two kids in a family.
Louka Parry (26:18)
So there's something really magical about that. yet what we try still to do is to go, okay, well, we're going to give a standardized, you know, well intentioned to try to have that basic education level as you speak to. But then we lose young people through the process. And, know, at, at best maybe, maybe 50 % of young people kind of get through and go like, that was, that was okay. You know, some really do thrive, which is great, but I mean, we're leaving tens of millions of young people behind.
Sunanna (26:40)
Yeah.
Louka Parry (26:43)
And similarly with our educators who are working sometimes to generate something in spite of the context that they're in. Comment.
Sunanna (26:52)
And I'm like, where do I start on that? I mean, the first thing I will say is, have you had anyone from remake learning on this podcast yet? Luca, have you had like Tyler or Greg or anybody like that?
Louka Parry (27:04)
That's a good question. I think we had Greg in like a few seasons ago.
Sunanna (27:08)
Okay, I'm going to go back and listen to that one. But one question, next time you see Greg, you can ask him this question too. I think often when my conviction that innovation can happen in traditional contexts, or I don't know if traditional context is the right word, but can happen in bureaucratic systems or in whatever, that conviction was built through remake learning. because what I saw, I mean, worked with 100 school districts at Remake Learning. And what I saw was over the course of my five years there, real deep change happened in some of those districts in a way that, honestly, I don't know if I thought was possible at the beginning. And it led to, I think that has shaped quite a lot of how I think about how innovation works because often, What I often say is... My deep conviction in this work is that I don't think that deeply relevant, engaging learning experiences, that joy and that depth of learning should only be available via luck or luxury, right? Like some people have a luxury to pay for it, and some people are lucky enough to live near schools that have that. But honestly, those types of schools are in pockets because the system has not designed for that type of learning. When I say the system, I mean the education system in the United States, the Committee of 10, this 150-year-old mob.
Sunanna (28:19)
Like it was not designed for this type of learning. And so it's not, you really have to be lucky or luxurious, right, to be able to access it. And so I have to believe that a larger system can change. And part of that belief comes from... being a part of a place like Remake Learning. And the reason why I think some of those, it's not, not I think, I deeply believe that those districts were able change was because they were in a network with tech companies and with museums and libraries who do this really, really well and with higher education institutions to see how those kind of Socratic seminars and other ways of learning work. And that gets pulled back into the system of education. And this is an education then can also share best practices back with those other. those other places. that's kind of thing one. Thing two is like, I don't actually believe that type of learning that I just described. It's like hard to put a name to because there are lots of names for it. It's like, it's not new. The type of learning we're talking about is ancestral. It's deep. It's just not been, as Michelle Culver, who, you know, shout out the Rhythm Project and she was the founder of the Re-Invention Lab, always said, it just was never systemically prioritized. And so then the question is, how do we not forget that actually
Louka Parry (29:15)
Absolutely.
Sunanna (29:26)
a lot of this type of learning comes from ancestral traditions of many different cultures over many years and then bring that into the current system in some way. think that's also something that gives me hope that it can be done because we have been doing this type of learning for many. We as humans learn this way. There's a lot of neuroscience behind the fact that we learn this way and we...
Sunanna (29:52)
Um, again, some of my optimism also comes from, uh, I said this on another podcast, cause I think it's, I think it's important, like Audrey Lord in Poetry is Not a Luxury says, you know, there are no new ideas, just new ways of making them known. Um, I'm probably rebuttering it, but it's like going back to this conversation around AI, I do feel somewhat optimistic right now in this moment, because I think AI is a new way, a potential new way of making that type of learning known, um, and easier for people to adopt in settings that traditionally
Louka Parry (30:04)
That's nice.
Sunanna (30:21)
would be much harder for various reasons. so, yeah, feel I don't think I could be doing this work if I thought it was only possible at the edges. I think I've seen a lot of evidence that it's possible in a lot of other places. And part of my work, I teach for America and in general, is just making sure that many, many more young folks have access to that type of learning.
Louka Parry (30:42)
Hmm. I love that. And, I will have to reach out to the remake learning team again and have a chat with them. One thing that strikes me about when you, where you said it's possible. And even that, that example, is there something about, you know, it not being an institutional, like the unit of change, not being an institution, the unit of change being obviously the humans, but the humans that are horizontally collected to each other. No. And so that's, that's kind of my query is that like, if systems aren't good at doing the horizontal connection.
Louka Parry (31:07)
into networks of learning that are really like allowing the emerging practice to be surfaced. If we're stuck in just kind of historical what works best in one context and trying to upscale that, doesn't, in my experience as an educator, it didn't work in the context where I was a teacher at all. We had to really adapt what we were doing. So there's something about that, the kind of learning ecosystem piece I think, or the network.
Sunanna (31:09)
Yeah.
Louka Parry (31:30)
aspect to that which I'm so fascinated by and I think it's where we could put more effort collectively.
Sunanna (31:35)
Yeah, I totally agree. If anyone is listening, you can support more networks in the world. That is where I really think that's where it happens. it's also, mean, just as I was listening to you talk, it's another reason why I'm so proud and still feel so creative and excited to be a teacher for America. Because again, we're obsessed with making sure that like, there's really great human beings in front of young people. Like that is the fundamental backbone of Teach for America that there are incredible talented human beings in front of young people and that those talented human beings are in community and cohort with other folks, not just other Teach for America folks, but in their communities, in their schools, in their learning environments, whatever they may be. And I think that is...
Louka Parry (32:00)
Yes. Yeah.
Sunanna (32:24)
that continues to be something that really motivates me. I think especially right now with all the conversations about technology, what I use any platform I have to talk about is like, it is the talent plus the tech. Like we have to be thinking about both. And I work at an organization that is just relentless about really amazing, high quality talent for young folks.
Louka Parry (32:30)
Hmm. Mmm, nice.
Sunanna (32:48)
You know, we should never be having a conversation about tech without having a conversation about talent because these two things go together. There's never going to be kind of a replacement for, and in my opinion, like a deep human connect, going back to AI companions. There's probably a place for AI companions at some point, but I just fundamentally do not believe that there's, that that's going to replace a deep loving human connection that creates the psychological safety and belonging for learning to occur. And so, And so, yeah, mean, the human beings are so important. I mean, one small anecdote that's so interesting to me is like, I was trying to create these images of, I was like, I used AI to create these two images. And one of them was like, give me a classroom where AI is being used for personalized learning or whatever. And it... created a classroom with rows and desks and there was one teacher there and there were all computers and each individual was individually looking at a computer. And I was like, okay, this is based on the fundamental knowledge and schema that we have about education. This tells me something about the data set this is drawing from. And then I promise you, Luca, I tried 20 different times at least to get it to generate an image.
Louka Parry (33:49)
That's exactly it.
Sunanna (33:56)
of AI being used like strategically and one offer like computers, technology being used to create human skills, like communication and creativity and blah, blah, blah. And young folks working together and adults being like these facilitators of learning and like my prompting got more and more specific and I kept iterating on it. And I actually never got there. And if anybody listening to this podcast wants to generate an image, I was using Microsoft co-pilot, maybe I need to use a different image generator, but it would do things. would do wild things like show a regular, regular traditional classroom setting and then write. collaboration and creativity on the background of the wall. I'm no, it's really not what they meant. But it kind of helps underscore the amount of unlearning as a system and cultural expectations that we have as a system to be able to create the radical imagination and paradigm change that we need. I do think AI can be used as a tool for that radical imagination, but AI is also built on all of the paradigms that we have and the cultural expectations of the past around school too. And so...
Louka Parry (34:26)
Hahaha Yeah, yeah, yeah. you
Sunanna (34:53)
And so yeah, talent plus tech, we still need humans to do radical imagining because the tech obviously can't do it for us either.
Louka Parry (34:58)
It's actually really, it's a beautiful mantra that I use often. It's a, you know, I think, I think it was Jim Collins. I'm he's like run your day or it runs you on, you know, some, some court that's like, that's fair. But there's some, same thing applies to technology and we don't have time to get in it today, but I spend a lot of time thinking about technology's impact on the learning process itself, even on potential like, you know, like for the pencil to enable metacognition. Right. As a possibility, because of course it's, you need to take a metacognitive view and think about your own thinking more to use these tools. What question am I, am I actually most curious about or am I asking? And, know, in some of the data sets that I've seen, we've still got, you know, and we're still at the stage where a lot of people are using it as Google, you know, and it's like low level. We talk about the solo taxonomy, right? For the ed nerds listening to this, you know, it's like, you want to use that uni structural. Tell me what this is, tell me what this is rather than getting into the extended abstract, which is like inferring, bringing in together, you know, and that, that I think is where the gold lies. Of course, how we get there is really a question around how we look at talent and developing talent and bringing in tech in really strategic ways. think, yeah, I think, I think a lot about that. cause I think there's like really like positive.
Sunanna (36:07)
Yeah.
Louka Parry (36:12)
impacts that we're seeing already. And of course it's kind of this paradox and we're seeing the negative, you know, girlfriend.ai kind of things that, you know, I don't think are really healthy at all for the human psyche or for young people. But, um, like two questions, two final questions for you Sinanus. I've enjoyed this chat so much. Oh my gosh. It opens up so many more questions. My final one is we're having this chat in five years time, which I do hope we are, you know, based on what you've kind of read in your signals and trends and your, your kind of insight to someone at that.
Sunanna (36:34)
Yeah, me too.
Louka Parry (36:39)
intersection, I guess, you're not predicting the future, but like, what would be a scenario that you would see, you know, in terms of the shift or the impact that it's starting to have, not, notwithstanding, you know, the predictions around AGI, which, you know, some people say is as early as 2027 or 2029. What's your What might be the landscape in five years time we're having this chat?
Sunanna (36:59) Ooh. Man. I mean, the first thing that had me thinking, Luka, is just like five years. mean, think about how many things have happened in the last five years that were just impossible to Five years ago was 2020. Think about everything that has happened since 2020. Isn't it just unimaginable? Like, if you had sat here five years ago and asked me that question, how wrong would I have been right now?
Louka Parry (37:11)
Yes, madness. Ha ha! yeah. You
Sunanna (37:25)
I would have been way off, Luca. Let me tell you that right now. It feels almost... No one has asked me that question in 2025, and for some reason this year it feels heavier because it is a milestone. It's five years since the pandemic started, and that is...
Louka Parry (37:29)
So...
Sunanna (37:47)
And so much has happened in our economy, technology, society since that time that it feels... I mean, just take in our media landscape. Like I recently heard that in the last four years, the number of young people that have gotten their news from TikTok has quadrupled. So like TikTok did not exist or at least like was not widely used, right? And five years ago and now, you know, how many people are getting their news from TikTok, which is huge. And so...
Louka Parry (38:12)
the dominant.
Sunanna (38:15)
And so I think if I start to predict, start to, and I take the data and trend lines that I see and play them out five years, I start to get, it starts to get a little dark. think what I would say though, if I'm thinking, if I'm trying to design the future that I want to see, My hope would be that in five years... Technology is... is a partner. I mean, I'm trying to like, is a partner and a productive partner in things that we're doing and not, because again, AI is going to be here, right? And I think that in five years, I would want us to... have a point where we as a society look at our lives with the amount of screen time and technology that we've had in the last decade and start to have almost like a cultural change like we did around smoking to be like, this is having a really intense effect on our lives. And we can actually make a big change in our relationship to technology in order to shape our lives and our futures as human beings. And I think that's...
Louka Parry (39:00)
nice.
Sunanna (39:13)
possible, like we're going to get to that place. You can already see kind of the winds shifting a little bit. And I look to young folks who are like, listen, I don't want to be doing this all the time. I don't want to be on social media all the time. And I think Generation Z, Generation Alpha is going to lead us to some of these things. I think it's like technology as partners, not pressure points for us as humans.
Louka Parry (39:28)
Hmm.
Sunanna (39:34)
technology as partners, not,
Louka Parry (39:37)
Persecutors.
Sunanna (39:38)
I persecutors is a good, yeah, of course I was trying to think of another P. This is like, you'd like, Sudan, you couldn't think of another P on the moment.
Louka Parry (39:42)
That's I was going to. That's so funny. Yeah.
Sunanna (39:47)
But it is kind of, I think we will have to get into this almost human-like partnership relationship with AI and with technology in the next. And how do we actually think about that partnership in terms of a healthy relationship? ⁓ In any human relationship, it's like if you get totally involved and you lose yourself to another person, that's also not great. And...
Louka Parry (40:01)
Mmm. Mmm.
Sunanna (40:10)
I think we as a society are at risk of losing ourselves to this technology in a way, and losing our human connections. And I think five years from now, we'd be in a really good place if we as a culture determined that this is actually a helpful partnership and not a way to create more isolation. yeah, I don't know. I think I'll end it there.
Louka Parry (40:31)
That's really, I really resonate with that. That's very, very powerful. It's almost as if the scenario, somebody says, like the, like the dazzle of, let's, let's watch something or let's go onto a screen, you know, a uni channel. Like that, that's become backgrounded because the focus is back on the connection. And I think there is a pendulum swing that I see as well. Sunana, unbelievable conversation. Oh my goodness. That felt like five minutes. Um, I have a final question for you. what is that? is a take home message that you want to share with our listeners today?
Sunanna (41:00)
We already had time? Wow, that's amazing. Wow. Okay. you as a listener, whoever you are, whether you... whether you work in education or you don't, whether you're adult or young person, whether you're a teacher or a district administrator or a consultant or a higher education worker or a nonprofit worker or whoever you are who's listening right now, you are responsible to, and you have a role in designing what the future of education looks and feels like for young people. And so, after listening to this conversation and taking in all that you know, what's your assignment? What are you gonna commit to to make sure that that design is right for each and every young person? And how are you gonna turn that commitment into action? And I think about that every day and I hope that folks listening will think about that too because we're moving too fast at this point to... to not be committing and recommitting and understanding our assignment as we move no matter where you are in your career, in your field or whatever. We all have an interest in and an ability to impact education for young people. And we should all understand where we are and understand our assignment.
Louka Parry (42:18)
Thank you so much for joining us for the learning future podcast. It's been an absolute delight.
Sunanna (42:23)
This was so fun. Thank you for having me. I feel very honored. And I hope you have a great full day and I'll have a great evening. All right, bye.
Louka Parry (42:30)
Absolutely, a great start. Thanks again.
