S2E4 - Fiona Boylan: Mindset Matters
What if our early learning environments prioritised the development of a growth mindset as highly as they do literacy and numeracy?
How might our teaching and leadership practices shift if we viewed advocacy not just as external action, but as embedded in every interaction we have with children, colleagues, and communities?
In this episode of Leading the Early Years, host Dr Amie Fabry is joined by Dr Fiona Boylan, senior lecturer and researcher at Edith Cowan University and author of Fostering Children’s Growth Mindset in the Early Years. Fiona brings her 25 years of experience as an early childhood educator into a compelling conversation about mindset theory, advocacy, and the power of embedding growth mindset practices into daily early years pedagogy.
Together, they explore Fiona’s research journey—from classroom observations to her PhD—and the development of nine key design principles to help early childhood educators foster resilience, persistence, and self-efficacy in young children. Fiona also shares personal insights into navigating leadership, public speaking fears, and the importance of advocacy in education.
This inspiring episode offers practical strategies, heartfelt stories, and a powerful reminder that children are capable of deep metacognitive thinking from a very young age—and that educators have a vital role to play in nurturing that.
About Fiona Boylan:
Dr Fiona Boylan is a Senior Lecturer in Early Childhood Studies in the School of Education at Edith Cowan University in Perth, Western Australia. She has had extensive experience teaching in early childhood settings across the early years of school. Fiona’s research interests centre on developing children’s metacognitive skills to enhance their learning capabilities and agency towards learning. In particular, her PhD focused on the work of Carol Dweck on mindset theory and researched the implementation of mindset theory to foster growth mindsets in the early years context. Fiona has presented and published her research nationally and internationally as she seeks to support educators to foster a growth mindset culture in early learning centres, classrooms and schools.
Resources Mentioned:
Fostering Children’s Growth Mindset in the Early Years by Dr. Fiona Boylan
Early Years Learning Framework (v2) – reference to mindset in Outcome 4
Be You Podcast episode with Dr. Fiona Boylan
Connect with Fiona Boylan:
Stay Connected with Dr Amie Fabry:
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[Transcript]
Amie Fabry (00:07)
Hello friends and welcome back to Leading the Early Years for the Future. I am your host, Amy Fabry and today I am delighted to be speaking with my very good friend, Dr. Fiona Boylan, who is a senior lecturer and researcher at Edith Cowan University and she is the author of the amazing book, Fostering Children's Growth Mindset in the Early Years. Welcome Fiona, it's so great to have you here today.
Dr Fiona Boylan (00:29)
Thanks Amy, I am absolutely delighted to be here with a really good friend to chat.
Amie Fabry (00:35)
Yep, and we've got lots to dive into today because your research is phenomenal. But before we do that, I always ask every guest, what is your hidden talent? Is there something that lights you up, brings you joy outside of your professional work?
Dr Fiona Boylan (00:49)
don't know if I'd call this a talent, but something I really love. I'm a swimmer, so I've done a lot of swimming in my lifetime. Swimming club as a child, it's still something I really love to do, whether it's at the pool doing laps or down at the beach. But alongside that, I just love being outside in nature. I'm a bit of a bird lover, bird watcher, not officially, but you know.
Amie Fabry (01:11)
Mmm.
Dr Fiona Boylan (01:13)
I just find when I'm out bushwalking or out in nature I'm getting really good at listening and spotting birds. So maybe down the track one day when I retire that might be me. I'll be the bird watcher in the little hut.
Amie Fabry (01:25)
That's amazing. And that is a talent. Like I know a couple of really common birds, you know, like Willy Wagtails and magpies, but that is a talent. That's beautiful. And I love being in nature too. It's so calming, isn't it? So grounding. So nice to balance out, get away from the screen too.
Dr Fiona Boylan (01:38)
Yeah, good for the soul.
Exactly.
Amie Fabry (01:42)
So Fiona, tell us about your work and your research.
Dr Fiona Boylan (01:46)
Yes, so my research focuses on how we can foster children's growth mindsets in the early years in a very succinct nutshell. And this work really stemmed from when I was an early childhood teacher. So I was an early childhood teacher for 25 years before I moved into academia. And really the idea for this research came about when I was actually
teaching. it was around that time when we had the push down of the Australian curriculum into the early years when we had that big shift and I really noticed a change in the way I was teaching pre-primary in Western Australia then and I just noticed this shift in the way children were responding to challenges in learning and it concerned me particularly because I knew the curriculum would not change but I
It concerned me because I thought as a teacher I have to figure out what will I do to support these children to be more positive and persistent and resilient when it comes to learning challenges. So I went off reading, looking for ideas of things that I could implement and try out. Came across Carol Dweck's amazing work on mindset theory.
And so due credit has to be given to her on all the work, know, over 30 plus years of research where she has worked on establishing mindset theory, but also looking at how it can be implemented into educational settings. But what I found was there was nothing for the early years. I ended up trying things out myself that I was adapting from primary school resources. And so then when I started to think about leaving
the classroom, leaving teaching and moving into academia and that was a very gradual process. I decided to start a masters. The masters then became the PhD and then the rest is history. My PhD developed some principles which can be thought of like guidelines for early childhood educators to support them in fostering children's growth mindsets.
Yeah, it's been a really exciting journey so far.
Amie Fabry (03:51)
Amazing. gosh, there's lots to dive into here. Growth mindset is so fascinating and I am familiar with Carol Dweck's work, but I don't know the ins and outs, certainly not like you do. So can you tell us a bit about your research project? What is it that you were researching and can you tell us about the principles?
Dr Fiona Boylan (04:10)
Sure. So maybe if I just start with a little bit about mindset theory in case there's anyone listening that doesn't actually know what mindset theory, but your mindset are the beliefs you have about your intelligence, your talents, your abilities. And the iceberg analogy is a nice way to think about this. So we have the iceberg sitting on the water, part of the iceberg is hidden underneath. That's your beliefs. What is visible is what sits above the water level and that's our behaviors. So the mindset we have
Amie Fabry (04:14)
Mmm.
Dr Fiona Boylan (04:37)
really impacts our behaviors. And what Carol Dweck discovered is that people tend to have different mindsets for different things. She came up with two mindsets, fixed and growth, but you need to think of them on a continuum, fixed down one end, growth down the other end. And we tend to fluctuate between these two mindsets. So if you are a fixed mindset oriented person for something,
You don't believe that applying effort is going to help you to get any better at anything. So you're very fixed in your belief. If you are growth mindset oriented, you believe that if I apply effort and strategies and I work at this and I persist, then I'm going to be able to get better at this. Whether you do or not is another thing, but it's the belief and the belief that I think I can get better if I keep trying at this. And be strategic. So we talk about focused effort.
Amie Fabry (05:27)
Hmm.
Dr Fiona Boylan (05:31)
being really important, not just any effort, but focused effort being really, really important. So that's sort of mindset theory in a nutshell. So what I did in my research was firstly, I did a survey with early childhood educators to find out their perceptions of mindset theory. And this was quite a while back now, probably sort of eight or nine years ago now. And what that survey showed was that
early childhood educators in Australia knew about mindset theory. They thought that it was important that we were addressing that in the early years, but they did not know how to or had the confidence to incorporate that in their practice. So that was the impetus then for the rest of the project, which was working with early childhood educators in kindergarten to year one. And we developed
Amie Fabry (06:11)
Mmm.
Dr Fiona Boylan (06:22)
design principles using design research and design principles like I said are guidelines or rules of thumb that you can be addressing in your context to create this growth mindset environment. And it was really important for me, I did not want to create something that was a lesson by lesson template or approach to the teaching of mindset because it's not something we just do in one term.
Amie Fabry (06:41)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dr Fiona Boylan (06:49)
To create that growth mindset environment, we need to be doing these things all of the time. so principles or guidelines were a better way to do this because it means you can be thinking about these things all year, not just for one term.
Amie Fabry (06:56)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Hmm. And embedding it into day to day practice, right? You know, I'm yeah, as a way of being and thinking about one's own abilities constantly. tell me, can you tell us about some of the design principles that came out of the project?
Dr Fiona Boylan (07:09)
Definitely.
Sure. So there were nine of them. Let me tell you about the one that the educators that I worked with or the teachers I worked with thought was the most impactful for them. So Dweck's research has shown that teaching about the brain is a really important thing we should do to foster growth mindsets and to teach about mindset theory. So in upper primary and adolescence, that looks like
Amie Fabry (07:30)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm
Dr Fiona Boylan (07:45)
complex videos, readings, worksheets, all of those sorts of things. And so when I worked with these teachers, they hadn't actually thought about that as being something that would be important to fostering growth mindsets. And so I sort of presented that to them. Well, the literature tells us that this is really important, but we need to think about how we're going to do this in the early years. So they found that really difficult to begin with, and they were really concerned about
whether children would understand some of the neuroscience terminology like neurons and synapses. But what we discovered was that they were very creative in coming up with ideas about how they would incorporate that principle and actually teaching children about their brain and what happens when you learn and that actually you need to have a little bit of struggle.
Amie Fabry (08:17)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Fiona Boylan (08:36)
So things do need to be a little bit hard, not too hard, but there does need to be some challenge in there. When the children understood that that actually grows their brain and strengthens their brain, it changed the language they used to talk about challenge and struggle. So rather than saying, this is too hard, I give up, I don't wanna do it anymore, they started talking about, this is hard.
Amie Fabry (08:39)
Hmm.
Dr Fiona Boylan (09:02)
but I know it's helping my brain to grow and get stronger. So it shifted the way they thought about challenge. Now I'm not saying it's a magic pill of course, there are still going to be children who don't like challenge and as an educator it's our role to make sure we offer the scaffolding. So that was another principle in there is helping educators to think about how they might scaffold children's learning.
Amie Fabry (09:15)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fiona Boylan (09:28)
so thinking
about those strategies that they can model. But that was a really big revelation for them. And so in my research, that principle actually came out as one that they felt had the most impact, yet it was something they had not thought about doing and actually thought that it would be too difficult, that children wouldn't understand it. And so they use strategies like showing children pictures of their brains. They made
Amie Fabry (09:41)
Hmm
Dr Fiona Boylan (09:53)
neurons out of pipe cleaners. I showed them how I had made a jelly brain using a jelly mold that I bought online when I was teaching. We found videos, we found books that were there's actually a lot out there now aimed at the early years that is quite suitable. And so this meant the teachers were upskilling their own neuro literacy.
Amie Fabry (10:08)
Awesome.
Hmm.
Dr Fiona Boylan (10:17)
as well as then talking with children about that too. And of course the children went home and told their parents, do you know what happens when you're learning? Guess what happens in your brain when you're learning. And so parents were then coming back into the school then and saying into the class and saying, what's this stuff they're learning about with the brain? You know, but they can't stop talking about it at home. So that was really lovely. But yeah, the principles I think are designed that you don't have to implement them
Amie Fabry (10:23)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Fiona Boylan (10:42)
all at once, you could just pick one and have a go at implementing that one for a while. Then when you think you've got that one sort of not nailed, but you've got a good handle on it, I guess you could go to another one. And you might start with principle one, which is all about knowing your own mindset and being able to model a growth mindset to the children you work with. But then you might go to principle eight, which is about teaching children about the brain. So they're sort of all over over the place. You don't have to
Amie Fabry (10:43)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Mmm.
Yeah, sure.
Dr Fiona Boylan (11:10)
be doing all of them. And in the book I wrote, which was released last year, which actually has a bit of a theoretical front bit, but then lists each principle and underneath each principle is some strategies that educators have actually tried out and have found successful in implementing that principle. So definitely, you know, if you're looking for more information, the book is a really,
great place to go and there's really currently not a lot out there to help early childhood educators in doing this that is research backed. So I guess I need to add in this is informed by research.
Amie Fabry (11:39)
Hmm...
Yeah, amazing. It's so remarkable, Fiona. And, you know, if I think back to what you said before, just in terms of the difference that these educators were noticing in the children, the language they used and the way they approached a challenge, that's going to have a huge impact on those children's lives, right? That's why, you know, it's worth paying attention to growth mindset in the first place. So from like your experience, like how is that really going to support
children's learning and development or even their wellbeing perhaps. Now as young children and your focus is very much on the early years and how do we not wait till they're teenagers and learn about the brain. Why is it so important in the early years that we're having these conversations and thinking about fostering growth mindset?
Dr Fiona Boylan (12:17)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Well, think, you know, many, many years ago, I think people thought that young children weren't capable of thinking about themselves as a learner and weren't capable of that metacognition. We know that's not true now. There are many studies that provide evidence that children from the age of two or three can actually start to think about themselves as a learner. And so for me, I had seen evidence of that as a teacher all through my teaching career.
Amie Fabry (12:42)
Hmm.
Dr Fiona Boylan (12:57)
So I felt really passionately that when I started this research that young children were very capable of having conversations and thinking about themselves as a learner. If we want to create lifelong learners, which is the aim of education, that's what we want when children leave year 12 or 10, whenever it might be, is to be able to go out into the big wide world.
and to be someone that continues to learn throughout their life and to learn successfully, hopefully. So for me, that was something we needed to start addressing in the early years. We shouldn't be waiting till they're in primary or upper high school. And I think for me, the benefits of that are if we teach about mindset theory, and by the way, teaching about fixed mindset is just as important.
Amie Fabry (13:24)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fiona Boylan (13:46)
as teaching about growth mindset because you need to recognise when you switch into that fixed mindset thinking and that fixed mindset self-talk that we all have, that eats away at our self-confidence, our self-efficacy, that little voice in our head that tells us you're not gonna be able to do that, you're not clever enough, you're not smart enough, you're not good enough, it doesn't matter how much you try. When we recognise that,
Amie Fabry (13:53)
Mmm.
you
Dr Fiona Boylan (14:12)
We can then think about, I happy to sit in that fixed mindset space for that particular thing? Sometimes we are, sometimes we don't need to move out of that fixed mindset. Or can we switch that self-talk into more growth mindset oriented self-talk? Now that then sets this foundation for young children. So as they move through school, and we know school becomes harder and harder, I guess for many children as they move through the years.
Amie Fabry (14:17)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fiona Boylan (14:39)
they've got this resource that they can fall back on and draw on. I also think it's important to mention that mindsets are not just created innately within you. The environment you're in has a really big impact on your mindset as well. So schools actually have a really big part to play here in the kind of environments they create and the kind of mindsets they might be fostering through
Amie Fabry (14:54)
Hmm.
Dr Fiona Boylan (15:03)
some of those wider school practices that schools engage in.
Amie Fabry (15:07)
Absolutely. Gosh, you know, it's not hard to see the difference that having that understanding of how your brain works and growth and fixed mindset and like you said, being able to recognise and have that awareness of all I'm for, you know, right now I'm approaching this with a fixed mindset versus a growth mindset. If I think about myself as a learner, you know, being a young child and having this skill set and this awareness,
Dr Fiona Boylan (15:28)
Mmm.
Amie Fabry (15:32)
would have really made life, I think a lot easier in some ways, you know, and if I think about some of the negative thoughts that I can still have in my head, to be really able to challenge that would be such a powerful skill for any human being to have. Yeah, it's just so, so exciting to hear you talk about this. And, you know, not only the benefits that we could see and have for children in their lives, but
the work you're doing to support educators to understand why this is actually worth paying attention to. Why should we bother making time in our busy schedules and programs to actually talk about growth and fixed mindset and enable children to understand their brains and think about the language that they use and that internal dialogue. It's really, really remarkable.
Dr Fiona Boylan (16:17)
And I think it
feeds into all learning areas, doesn't it? So when you think about everything we're trying to do as early childhood educators, if you have taught children about mindsets, when it comes to writing their name and they're falling apart because they can't get it right, you can prompt children, okay, let's think about how we could use some more growth mindset self-talk here rather than it's too hard, can't do it. So I think it just provides this beautiful foundation that you can link in with other
Amie Fabry (16:22)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Mm.
Dr Fiona Boylan (16:46)
learning areas to support your teaching and children's learning in all other learning areas.
Amie Fabry (16:48)
Mmm.
So powerful, so powerful. You are such a strong advocate for mindset and you your research is phenomenal. Why is advocacy so important in the work that you're doing in growth mindset?
Dr Fiona Boylan (17:04)
Well, think number one, you know, I need to advocate to get my work out there. So if I want educators to know about this, I mean, one of the biggest, I guess it's a positive, one of the biggest, one of the happiest moments for me was seeing the update to the revised version of the early years learning framework and seeing in a policy document that early childhood educators have to use
Amie Fabry (17:11)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fiona Boylan (17:31)
that reference in outcome four to fostering children's growth mindset. So if I had to walk away and do a mic drop, that would be it. I'd go, boom, I'm happy. You know, that was probably one of the happiest, most thrilling moments for me because it means now all early childhood educators have to start to think about how they're going to do this. I would love to see this incorporated in the Australian curriculum in a more explicit way. It's not happened yet.
Amie Fabry (17:51)
Mmm. Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fiona Boylan (18:00)
But again, I'll be advocating for that. I'll be continuing to advocate for that in any way I can to perhaps make that happen. And you know, mindset is something that is being measured in the OECD testing now. So we're not talking about something, you know, a lot of countries are starting to think about this. So I think Australia can really start to think about, okay, if it's in the early years learning framework, what then happens when children move in?
Amie Fabry (18:05)
Hmm.
Yeah, yeah.
Dr Fiona Boylan (18:26)
to those upper years, what are we doing to continue to foster mindset? So in terms of advocacy, it's important for me to advocate to make that difference. If I don't keep talking about this and grabbing those opportunities that come along to share my work, there's no one else I know in Australia that is talking about this in the early years and in fact,
Amie Fabry (18:30)
Hmm... Hmm...
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fiona Boylan (18:48)
few people in the world as well. that really drives me to keep talking about this. Plus it's my passion. I love it.
Amie Fabry (18:50)
Hmm.
Yeah, I can hear how passionate you are.
And, you know, I'm really reflecting on what you're saying about the role of advocacy, because it's so true, right? We have to keep having the conversations and, you know, without being the voice for growth mindset in the early years, which you are, you know, it does fall off people's radars. Well, they might hear it once, but then they forget about it or they've never heard about it at all. you know, continuing that
conversation and sharing it with lots of people in lots of ways is how more and more people will come to be aware of the importance of growth mindset, but even what role they might play in fostering that growth mindset in the children that they work with. What are some of the ways that you have been advocating? How do you actually get your message out there and share what you know and what you've learnt with the early childhood sector or even with the policy space?
Dr Fiona Boylan (19:39)
Mm.
Hmm.
Yeah, I mean, if I think back to when I was in the classroom and I actually very first started experimenting with this, I was advocating through my practice where other teachers were coming into my room, looking at things I had up around the room or would hear me talking about it to say, what are you doing? What's this mindset thing you're doing? You know, I ran a professional learning session in the school I was working with. So that was the initial way I started advocating.
Amie Fabry (19:59)
Mmm.
Yep.
Dr Fiona Boylan (20:17)
for this, for my belief in the importance of addressing this. Then once I moved into academia, obviously through my studies, I've taken up as many opportunities as I can that have come my way to talk about mindset, whether that's presenting at conferences, going to schools and talking at schools. And there were many times where I was terrified of doing those things.
and in fact was engaging in fixed mindset self-talk and thinking. Myself at that time, because it was scary, I was doing new things that I hadn't done before. But you know, when you do a PhD on fostering growth mindsets, you can't say no, you can't walk away and quit. So I knew I had to keep going. And actually, you know, it caused me to really think about my own.
Amie Fabry (20:49)
you
Dr Fiona Boylan (21:03)
mindsets and to really focus in on some of those responses. So most of the time I say yes to anything that comes my way and then I worry later about how I'm actually going to do that and get over that those terrifying feelings of you know, my gosh, why did I say yes to that? But yeah, I think advocating through speaking at schools, conferences, networks and then I think once I finished my work,
Amie Fabry (21:20)
Yeah.
Dr Fiona Boylan (21:28)
I've done media before with podcasts and blogs. I recorded a really great podcast last year with BU and that was myself but also an educator in New South Wales who had been trialling some of my principles. And that's a free podcast that we can link so that people can listen to that. And then the book obviously, for me that's been really important because
Amie Fabry (21:48)
Brilliant.
Dr Fiona Boylan (21:52)
early childhood educators are not really going to want to read my thesis. It's a big massive document. And so writing the book where I've put my findings into a much more practical, easy to read resource that educators can use has been a really, really important way of advocating. And then, you know, last year I had that opportunity to go overseas and speak internationally about my research and
That's leading to some really exciting opportunities to now start to collaborate internationally and share mindset in the early years with a country that's never even thought about this. So that's absolutely amazing and not something I thought I would get to do so quickly.
Amie Fabry (22:29)
Wow.
Amazing. It sounds like advocacy for you has been, I guess, about sharing what you're learning. You know, you're talking about it because it's important and you you mentioned your passion, which we can hear coming through really strongly. But it also sounds like it's been a bit of a journey of what's the next opportunity perhaps. And you talked about just kind of seizing those opportunities.
Dr Fiona Boylan (22:58)
Yeah, I think that's true. just don't, I think I've been open to all the opportunities that have come my way. I think it's been important to have people mentoring me along the way to know whether opportunities are good or bad. Particularly being a new, when I was new into academia, you know, that's a whole new ball game to get your head around. And so having colleagues who could
Amie Fabry (23:06)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fiona Boylan (23:25)
provide that mentorship throughout has been really important. But for me, it is just about having those conversations and sharing the importance of this. Whether that's with friends at coffee or standing up the front at a conference with 200 or more people there, for me, they're both just as important. So I think when leaders think about advocacy, it doesn't have to be about
Amie Fabry (23:32)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fiona Boylan (23:51)
the stand up in front of the conference thing or doing big presentations or it's about talking about what you're doing in your practice that you think is making a really big difference that someone else might actually want to hear about and might think, wow, I really like that. I think I might want to give that a try.
Amie Fabry (23:58)
Hmm.
So true. and I think, you know, sometimes we forget that even one conversation might just plan to seed with somebody, you know, raise their own awareness to it or something that they really want to go and explore further. And you know, whether it's 200 people, as you said, or a conversation with one, you know, we we don't always know where our advocacy is going to lead or what the actual impact is, right? Is has that been your experience? Or is it a little more
Dr Fiona Boylan (24:19)
Mmm.
definitely. know, I don't think I've ever, you know, I didn't dream that I would be being invited to an overseas country to talk about and share my work. You know, that's just been an opportunity that arose at a conference in a room where I presented to five people where I thought this is probably a waste of my time. Nothing is going to come out of this and has resulted in, you know, something that's looking like
Amie Fabry (24:36)
concrete in.
Hmm.
Dr Fiona Boylan (25:02)
going to be a really exciting international collaboration. I think for me, seizing those opportunities, not writing things off that, well, this is going to be a waste of time or no one's listening or there will be times when that happens. There will be times, I think, when you walk away from being an advocate and you actually feel quite defeated. There were times when I questioned, you know, there are people out there who don't believe that mindset theory is a valid theory.
Amie Fabry (25:23)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fiona Boylan (25:30)
And as part of my thesis, I had to read around that a lot. So there were times when I did have those doubts of, this really as important as I think it is? Or is it just that I have this individual passion for this and no one else really cares as much as I do? But I think as you advocate, the people you talk to also feed back into you to reignite that passion within yourself. So when I talk to people and
Amie Fabry (25:36)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Fiona Boylan (25:58)
They give me feedback about how amazing the presentation was or I've been trying some of this out and I'm just absolutely loving it. The podcast with BU where we got to talk with an educator who tried out some of my work and had seen positive changes in practice in the educators, that's really exciting for me. That reignites me because advocacy can be tiring at times. It requires energy.
Amie Fabry (26:25)
Hmm.
Such a good point. Such a good point. You know, I love that you're talking about connecting with people who it resonates with as you know, really reigniting your own passion and energy, I guess, particularly when you're feeling deflated, but even having mentors around you to guide and support you.
Dr Fiona Boylan (26:41)
Hmm.
Amie Fabry (26:42)
I'd really love to come back to an earlier point you made though. You and you've highlighted some of the real challenges that come with being an advocate and a leader in the early years. You mentioned, you know, getting invited to speak at conferences and things and that your own fixed mindset jumped in. As an expert in growth mindset, can you talk us through like, how did you shift your own mindset from being fixed to growth? How did you overcome some of those internal struggles?
around, I do this? I feel terrified. What worked for you?
Dr Fiona Boylan (27:16)
I think being prepared is really important. So naturally my personality is to be organized and prepared, but even being more prepared than usual. you know, if I was giving a presentation and I was feeling quite terrified about that, it meant that I spent quite a lot of time preparing slides, you know, writing up notes to support them.
Amie Fabry (27:23)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fiona Boylan (27:37)
Practicing that presentation out loud several times over, recording myself on my phone so I could hear myself back again and critiquing myself, asking family to listen, talking it through to the dog, you know, all those opportunities to practice, practice, practice. So I think strategies like breaking it down into manageable steps is really important.
thinking about some of the tools that I might be using that provide those extra scaffolds and supports. And then, you know, when you finally get to that point where you've got to step up and do the presentation, taking a big breath, realising that you probably know more than the audience in front of you was really a good strategy for me.
And speaking from the heart, making it little bit personal, not just all theoretical, I think was really important. And breathing, taking those deep breaths. Always, when I first started speaking publicly, I would be little bit jittery probably for the first few minutes and then as I relaxed into it. And my presentation style is probably also to use a little bit of humor. That's a way that I feel I can connect with my audience as well.
Amie Fabry (28:28)
Hmm.
Hahaha
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fiona Boylan (28:49)
So yeah, multiple strategies. And I still have those feelings of nervousness before I get up to speak. It's not probably as terrifying as it used to be. But I still have those feelings of everyone's going to think, what a faker she is, what would she know?
Amie Fabry (29:06)
that imposter syndrome. It doesn't seem to matter who you speak to, right? But we all carry this imposter syndrome. They are some really wonderful strategies and tips, Fiona. Thank you for sharing them and being so open about your own challenges. Because I think too, we all navigate. Well, we all need to navigate challenges, right? They come with life and they come with being a leader and trying to...
Dr Fiona Boylan (29:09)
Exactly.
Mmm.
Amie Fabry (29:31)
lead some kind of change, influence people, raise awareness, advocate. It just doesn't come without challenges. So I'm really grateful to you for being able to and willing to talk about the challenges. I just don't think we talk about them enough. But you know, it's a bit, please, yeah, please.
Dr Fiona Boylan (29:44)
Hmm. No, can I add one more thing, Amy too? I just thought of one
more thing. I think one other thing that I found really difficult was getting critical feedback. And in academia, particularly, that's a really big part of what I do now is receiving critical feedback. Certainly throughout doing a PhD, that's a big part of it. So that was something I had to really work hard at.
Amie Fabry (29:56)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Mm.
Dr Fiona Boylan (30:11)
is to learn to sit with the feelings of getting critical feedback, which makes you feel really yucky. To then walk away from it for maybe 24 hours, 48 hours until I felt like my emotions had settled and to then be able to come back and think about that feedback, whether it was verbal or written in a more constructive way and to decide, is there any validity to any of that feedback?
Am I being too close minded when I say, what would they know? It's not useful feedback. And to then really think about, can I take anything away from this feedback that is going to improve this or improve me in any way?
Amie Fabry (30:47)
Hmm.
Mm, I love that. I love that. And I think too, you know, I'm reflecting on some of the educators and leaders that I work alongside as well. And, you know, whether you're having a conversation with people that you work with, whether you're having a conversation or presenting to a really large audience, we do often get feedback and we don't always resonate with everybody. We're really passionate about something that we believe in, but other people come with their own lenses and
they are entitled to share their perspective, right? So getting that feedback, I think is some of the hardest challenge. So I love that you're talking about, you know, being able to sit with those feelings and come back to it and reflect on it later, because I think, you know, and it's something I have to work on as well all the time, you know, to not get caught up in the emotions that arise because of the feedback, but actually to let them move through and then, you know, when you're in a better
Dr Fiona Boylan (31:36)
Mmm, mmm.
Yeah.
Amie Fabry (31:45)
space cognitively to process it, but also to reflect on it, like you're saying, not just necessarily take it on board, but really think about how can this serve me? Like, is there a learning opportunity here for me? Is this going to help me to grow as an individual? Or is this going to help with my work? You know, who is the person that's sharing the feedback? Is it somebody that I actually value and respect or not? You know, there's actually a fair bit we can do with feedback. I think when we give it the time,
Dr Fiona Boylan (31:53)
Mm-mm.
Mmm.
Amie Fabry (32:14)
to let the emotions settle first. That's really, really wonderful advice. I'd love to zoom out for a second. And if you think about your role as a leader in this space, particularly around growth mindset, what have been some of your biggest learnings about leadership and being a leader?
Dr Fiona Boylan (32:17)
Yeah.
I think so, you know, I obviously lead in this space in my research and I have a leadership role in the work I do at ECU as well. I think connecting with people is really important. And that's in either of those spaces that I work in. And some people are easier to connect with than others. So when you're leading, I think what you're trying to do is
You want people on your side. You want people that are going to listen to you and respect you. And I've learned that sometimes you have to connect differently with different people and in different ways. So being able to sort of, I guess, read people a little bit is important. You know, when I'm advocating to a larger audience on mindset, you know, I've got a massive room of people. Like I said, humor can be a nice way to try and connect with the audience.
Amie Fabry (33:18)
Hmm.
Dr Fiona Boylan (33:20)
But when I'm leading in a smaller group in my work at a university and I'm having to make difficult decisions or have difficult conversations, I have to really think carefully how I'm connecting with that person. I think connection's really important. And I think being able to say why something has to be the way it is, know, as leaders, you often have to make difficult decisions or
communicate information that not everyone wants to hear, whether it's to do with more work, for example. And so for some people, they take that on really easily. Sure, no problem. Yeah, it's not ideal, but I'll be okay. I can work that out. I'll work through it. And for other people, it takes a little while to, I'm going to say bring them off the ledge, but it's...
Amie Fabry (33:51)
Hmm.
Dr Fiona Boylan (34:10)
you know, their personality might be that they really push back initially and they need that time to digest, take it on board. So I think as a leader, realising that not everyone is going to respond in the same way when you are having to make change or to lead change in whatever setting it might be.
Amie Fabry (34:15)
Yeah.
Hmm.
So true, we are complex, wonderful human beings and we're all incredibly different, aren't we? Whether we're thinking about the young children that we're working alongside, they are all different. But we continue to be different as we grow and move into adulthood. So it's kind of the same principle, right? Human beings are different and we all bring our own lenses. I think that's really great learning. think I would...
Dr Fiona Boylan (34:37)
Absolutely, yeah.
Amie Fabry (34:58)
would mirror my own experience of leadership, just acknowledging everybody's different, right? Everybody's different. yeah, but that message about connecting I think is so important because it's not just about having on our own terms, but actually if we really want to be able to support people, lead and guide people, we need to connect with them where they're at. being able to recognize, yeah, absolutely.
Dr Fiona Boylan (35:01)
Yeah, yeah.
Absolutely, yeah.
And giving them a voice, yeah, giving them that
opportunity to perhaps, you know, share, to collaborate with you if it's something that you can. You know, I think in leadership, there are those opportunities where you can work collaboratively with people, but sometimes there actually is not. It is something that you have to, it's a directive that you have to pass down the line.
Amie Fabry (35:38)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fiona Boylan (35:42)
and being clear with people about that where you're saying, unfortunately, there's no wriggle room here. This is something we have to be doing. But then there are other opportunities where it could be something where you can lead that very collaboratively with the people you work with. And so I think, you know, the leadership style you might use in those two different scenarios might be slightly different.
Amie Fabry (36:04)
Yeah, definitely being adaptable, right? Not just a one size fits all model of yourself as a leader, but actually being able to, you know, read the context and the people and you know, what's happening is really important to adjust that kind of message or even the actions that you have to take. My last question for you, Fiona is, do you, when you think about the future of early childhood education,
Dr Fiona Boylan (36:07)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm, mm.
Amie Fabry (36:30)
What do you envision and what role do you see leadership playing in shaping that future?
Dr Fiona Boylan (36:35)
okay, let's think about what do I envisage. I mean, I would love to see quality, high quality practice in early childhood education that is benefiting all children no matter what socioeconomic status you are so that all children have access to high quality early childhood education. And when I talk about high quality,
I'm talking about learning through play, moving away from this push down we have that is feeding into high levels of anxiety that I've experienced, and that's several years ago when I was teaching and I know it's worse now. There are other countries around the world currently who are going back to looking at the importance of play in the early years.
and realising that this industrial model of education that they're following is not the right fit at the moment. And although we might be able to get our NAPLAN scores up a bit higher, it's not necessarily contributing to the overall wellbeing of the child. So getting a little bit on my high horse here, but that's what I envisage for the future is when I have grandchildren, I want to be really comfortable and confident in
Amie Fabry (37:40)
No.
Dr Fiona Boylan (37:49)
the early learning settings I'm sending them through, that they are adding and benefiting my child, not detracting and taking away from the experiences, the learning, the growth, the development, the wellbeing of those children. So I think that's really important. What role does leadership play? I think it's really important that as early childhood leaders, we use this opportunity to be the voice for children.
but also that we listen to children. So it's not just about us talking for children all of the time. Children have a voice, they're very capable of sharing their thoughts and feelings and very capable of thinking about themselves. And I think we need to see more of that when we think about the way children are consulted in terms of policy changes that happened in the early years.
Amie Fabry (38:18)
you
Dr Fiona Boylan (38:38)
what we really need to see is children being listened to as part of that process. Yeah, that's probably my answer to those two questions.
Amie Fabry (38:46)
That's beautiful. know, leadership has such a pivotal role to play, right? Whether you are advocating for children, but even to shift some of our practices so that we are listening to children and engaging with children directly. I think that would definitely make some significant changes to the way we think about education right across a child's life.
And, you know, without leadership to help drive some of that change in practice, we could probably safely say we'll keep doing the same, right? So whether you're advocating for play or growth mindset, we all have a role to play in actually shaping the future and the future that we know our children actually deserve. It has been such a joy to talk to you, Fiona. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for sharing.
Dr Fiona Boylan (39:18)
Exactly. Yep.
Amie Fabry (39:33)
and telling us about your phenomenal research and your book. It's amazing.
Dr Fiona Boylan (39:37)
Thanks Amy and thanks for giving me the opportunity to come along and talk and share and advocate some more. you know, I hope that people take away a little bit of interest about Mindset now and might go and do some exploring and look at some of the resources that I know you're going to share.
Amie Fabry (39:53)
I am sure they will. I'm going to do some more of my own research and keep thinking about how I can, you know, make sure I'm opting for a growth mindset over a fixed myself. Thanks again, Fiona.
Dr Fiona Boylan (40:07)
Thanks, Amy.
