S2E10 - Heather Bernt-Santy: The Importance of Play Advocacy
What if the most effective form of advocacy isn’t about convincing others, but about modelling intention and sharing curiosity in the everyday moments of our practice?
How might our own playful engagement as adults rekindle both our resilience and our capacity to truly lead in the early years?
📘 Episode Summary
In this heartfelt and energising episode of Leading the Early Years for the Future, Amie Fabry is joined by play advocate, educator, and a podcast host Heather Bernt-Santy. With over three decades of experience in early childhood education, Heather shares her deep commitment to advocating for the power of play — not only for children, but also for the adults who care for them. From navigating resistance in co-teaching relationships to tailoring advocacy for different audiences, Heather offers practical insights and emotional honesty about the challenges and joys of championing developmentally appropriate practice. The conversation is a rich exploration of hope, relational leadership, and why sometimes the most powerful advocacy starts with small glimmers of change
Whether you’re an educator, leader, parent, or advocate for change, this episode is a must-listen for anyone ready to reimagine wellbeing at the centre of educational practice.
👤 About Heather Bernt-Santy
Heather Bernt-Santy is a professor of Early Childhood Education, long-time early years educator, and the host of the widely respected podcast That Early Childhood Nerd. With more than 35 years of experience working with young children and their families, Heather is a passionate play advocate, a writer, and a sought-after speaker on developmentally appropriate practice and schema play. Her first book, which centres on advocating for play through the lens of schema theory, is due for release later this year. Known for her honest, warm, and deeply hopeful approach to teaching and advocacy, Heather continues to inspire educators globally to reclaim the joy and integrity of play-based learning.
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[Transcript]
Amie Fabry (00:07)
Hello friends and welcome back to Leading the Early Years for the Future. I am Amy Fabry and I am delighted to be speaking with Professor Heather Burnt-Santi today who is host of the podcast, That Early Childhood Nerd and she is a play advocate. So I can't wait to dive into this conversation. Heather, I am absolutely delighted to be talking with you today. Thank you for joining me.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (00:29)
I'm so happy to be here, I'm excited.
Amie Fabry (00:30)
Heather, I always ask my guests the same question first up and that is, do you have a hidden talent or something that just lights you up, brings you joy outside of your professional work that you do?
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (00:43)
Yeah, I love to throw a good theme party or game night.
Amie Fabry (00:47)
that sounds so fun.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (00:48)
Theme parties usually centered around classic movies, like real classic movies. The black and white ones, not the ones from the 80s. Or music of some kind. But yeah, I like to come up with fun ideas for those kinds of things.
Yeah, awesome.
amazing.
That's amazing. I just love this so much because what stand out is play, right? Like we still need to play as adults. So tell us about the work you do. Like you wear a few different hats, but tell us about the work that you do as a leader in the early years.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (01:10)
Yes.
Yeah, so I've been doing work with children and their families since I was 19. So that's about 35, 36 years now. Starting work in a childcare center before I knew it was something you could study or learn about or advocate for. ⁓ So I've worked in that direct care for a long time, but right now I am a professor at a community college, which is a two year college here in the States and teaching early childhood education.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (01:45)
And then I also host, as you said, the podcast, That Early Childhood Nerd. I do a lot of social media ⁓ posting and advocating in that way. And I like to do, I like to write. I've got my first book actually coming out later this year, so I'm very excited. Yeah, thank you. It's been a dream since I was 11, and I'm getting a tattoo tomorrow night to commemorate having done it at 54.
Amie Fabry (01:53)
⁓ Amazing, congratulations.
Awesome.
He's so cool!
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (02:11)
So I just like to, I just feel so strongly about being what I needed when I was young. ⁓ That, you know, I'm just really driven to get the word out on behalf of children in any way I have within my reach.
Amie Fabry (02:17)
Amazing. So can you tell us more then? You mentioned wanting to be what you needed. What led you to work in early childhood?
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (02:34)
Yeah.
So I mentioned I was only 19. I was in college studying English and French and it didn't work very well. I didn't stay in college very long the first time. But so I just needed a job. And I think ⁓ someone I knew from church maybe worked in a child care center in our in our city and
Amie Fabry (02:47)
Hmm.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (02:55)
knew that they needed someone. I know the classic story. I'd babysat for children as a teenager and knew I was good with them and that I would enjoy the work. And then I got into it and realized it was so much more than just, you know, liking kids or whatever.
Amie Fabry (02:59)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So you are a strong advocate for play. First, tell us why play is so important.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (03:19)
well, I mean, it's the child's first language, right? It's, it's the way, and it's the way the child is wired to learn and grow and develop, most efficiently and, kind of most authentically. And, I, well, I had a lot of hard times in my childhood. I also had a lot of wonderful play that, ⁓ that drives me also that it's just.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (03:42)
I just think childhood should be play. You know, there's all these labels we can give it and reasons we can give to persuade grownups about it, but ultimately a child should just be able to have a joyful, healthy play.
Amie Fabry (03:45)
Hmm. I couldn't agree more. And you know, often, we as adults think back to our childhoods, we don't remember all of the beautifully scripted lessons that teachers were telling us. We remember the playful times we remember when we could be ourselves and we could share and express what we were thinking we could connect with other people, you know, it is about the play and
The way we also need to find fun and connection to ourselves, to other people, to community, to our strengths is through play, even as adults. But it's still quite sad, I think, that we don't value play as we could. And, you know, I think we should.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (04:26)
Yes.
Yeah, I definitely think that it's also so important for adults. And so when I'm teaching my college students, we're doing as much play as we can, depending on the modality of the class. If it's online, it's a little bit trickier. And I just did a couple of conference presentations this spring about using a playful pedagogy in higher education. And there was a lot of interest, which was heartening.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (04:57)
But I think that's a step towards getting children the play they deserve is if we can get adults to connect with play also.
Amie Fabry (04:58)
Hmm, I agree. I agree. You know, when they value it, then maybe we'll value it for children. ⁓ But you know, selfishly, I guess sometimes we come from our own lens before we come from the child's lens and think about what matters to them. So tell me about your advocacy. Why is advocacy so important?
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (05:10)
Yes.
You know, honestly, I think it started with my own teacher ego. Like it really did start with me feeling like this is something I'm really good at. I want to go talk to other people about it too. ⁓ Before I connected it to, you know, maybe I didn't have the language at the time that it was advocacy and it probably still was coming from a place of wanting children to have the best.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (05:46)
experiences they could have. But I want to be honest, it was also started with me wanting to, to use a skill I thought I had. But the longer I'm in the work, the more I see various cultural pressures and adult priorities and teacher egos in early childhood, pushing play out and
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (06:08)
with the
best of intentions most of the time. We really wanna do what's right for children and what's gonna be helpful for them and their development and their learning. But we get mixed up and start going in the wrong direction. And so now I'm just using any means I have to talk about play to the point that I get a lot of...
Amie Fabry (06:10)
Yep. Yep.
Hmm.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (06:29)
little bit of teasing. Mostly from like my colleagues at the college who are not in early childhood, or you know, family members who, you know, just that I'm the play person, which I'll take, I'll take that all day long. Yeah.
Amie Fabry (06:37)
Mmm.
That's a great compliment,
It certainly says that you're actually getting your message out loud and clear when people are coming to you and saying you're the play person. So what does advocacy look like for you then? How do you get that message out?
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (06:46)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
It kind of depends on which tech strategy I'm using, I guess I'll say. I'm like when I'm doing the podcast, it's really just about something I'm excited about. And I'm going to throw it out there and bring the guests on that I think will also share that enthusiasm for whatever that topic is. And it'll find the people that it finds. When I'm writing and when I do conference,
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (07:20)
presentations, I think a little bit more about a specific audience. ⁓ In fact, my book is about using schema play theory to advocate for free play. it's really ⁓ based on the idea that there are specific audiences who have different priorities that push out play. And so my message about play has to show
Amie Fabry (07:25)
Wow.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (07:46)
this group that it hits their priorities and this group that it can play can help you meet your priorities. And so it's really tailoring the message and then finding both anecdotal evidence and that hard evidence that everybody wants to make the connection for them. And it can be authentically done. Sometimes when I talk about this,
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (08:08)
It seems like, so for example, one of the audiences that I talk about is like the playing teacher crowd, the people who really just want it to be like school. And it has to look like school to be seen as learning. And that way I get seen as a professional. Those folks are, it's hard for them to get on board with play because they have these pressures they feel and this need that they have.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (08:29)
So I have to take a play, an example of a child at play and point out the kind of learning or here's how you can still be a teacher when the child is playing like this on their own, following their own idea. It really requires, I think, knowing.
what your audience cares enough about that they'll stop and listen and maybe consider. ⁓ And so when I'm writing or speaking at conferences, it's a lot more tailored than the podcast is just a, I just started that to trick people into talking with me about what I'm reading.
Amie Fabry (08:52)
Mmm.
can totally relate, right? Starting a podcast is the best thing I ever did because I just get to meet some amazing people and have great conversations. I love that you're talking about different audiences and that there's different things that people care about. And that then becomes a point of leverage in our advocacy, you know, to really think about what matters to them, what do they care about? Then how do I tailor my message so that it meets their needs? How do you
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (09:03)
Yeah
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Amie Fabry (09:29)
Find out what they care about.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (09:31)
I mean, in the real world, it's watching what they do and talking with them and what do they plan for children when they're planning for children? Or if it's a parent, what do they ask about when they're coming to see if they want to bring their child here? It's honestly my dream. I was a child care center director for a while and I still, understand why they ask this question when a family calls and says,
Amie Fabry (09:36)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Yep. Yep.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (09:54)
Do they learn things there or are you just like daycare or do they just play? Like I know that they're just like advocating for their child there with the information that they have. But I still have like a visceral reaction and it's honestly my dream to someday have more parents calling and saying, so tell me about play or something like, do they get to play there or do you just try and make it look like school? My dream is to see that shift and to start having it.
Amie Fabry (10:01)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (10:19)
happen that way. you know, I think you just, you know, I also did so, so guess in the real world, it's relationship, right, we have to get in relationship with people to know what their values and priorities are. But I mean, I also did a literature review as part of a master's thesis that then turned into this book that I've been talking about. And I identified, like five barriers.
Amie Fabry (10:26)
Hmm. Yeah.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (10:40)
to play and that kind of helps me see what priorities other people might have too, like legislative things and just that cultural pressure that earlier is better or school readiness concerns. If we can kind of figure out what's driving us away from play, that helps us see what our messages need to be. And if it's parents and families, it's just pictures of their children.
Amie Fabry (10:40)
Absolutely.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (11:04)
And that's their priority with the label of what kind of things they might be learning or getting valuable practice with, or just loving about what they're doing.
Amie Fabry (11:12)
Yeah, absolutely. It is so much about the relationships, right? And trying to understand where people are coming from. And I love what you mentioned earlier, you know, that these people who might not value play the way we do, they still have good hearts. You know, these are good people who genuinely want what's best for children. And I think sometimes we can lose sight of that because we feel frustrated, you know, that they're not listening and they're not agreeing with us and they're not valuing the same things. But at the end of the day, they're
they're actually allowed to have their own values, right? They're allowed to disagree with you. And I think we have to remember that there's still people who want good things for children, whether they're families or whether they're other educators and teachers. So I love this concept of, know, getting into relationship and really trying to understand what the barriers are for them or what it is that they want for their child, because then I think that creates a space that we can value add. So,
Advocacy to you, if it's relational. know, one of the big questions that I'm often, I guess, asked by teachers and educators is particularly like, if we're thinking about schooling and how do we prepare children for school or how do we make sure we're doing enough formal teaching, you know, so they're really doing proper learning. ⁓ You know, when you're working with...
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (12:22)
Mm-hmm.
Amie Fabry (12:25)
colleagues even or administrators who want a really formal approach. I think a lot of educators find that quite scary and daunting, you know, to advocate to them because I wonder if the outcome is we want to change their minds. You know, how do you approach, I guess, people who have really different values, even if you're understanding where they're coming from?
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (12:40)
Mm-hmm.
Amie Fabry (12:48)
How do you go about that and you know, kind of get through that if you kind of engage in even a conversation or whether it's a presentation or something that you're really trying to work with someone who sees things really differently, how do you navigate that space and perhaps any tension that's there?
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (13:04)
Yeah, so it's really easy when I'm speaking because I can leave. And I know that I'm not going to, you know, win everybody's heart and mind probably in a room full of people. So, but I love having the conversations. mean, I think listening and then again, it takes, I think, a good solid foundation myself. So there's years that I've been studying about it and reading and watching and being curious.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (13:28)
builds that foundation so that it's easier for me because I'm going to have that defensive response, right? The person, the parent who calls or the person in the presentation who wants to question and clearly isn't won over yet. So I want to just be comfortable. So I kind of have to have some short answers ready to go or practiced or rehearsed. You you can kind of know what kinds of objections might come up.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (13:53)
⁓
so there's an element of just practicing and learning. but I think the hardest thing for me has been when I've been in working in an early childhood classroom, as a teacher with a co-teacher who doesn't, you know, we're not on the same page. That happens a lot with me for some reason. because then there's that, excuse me, that element that
I don't want things to get too tense because that is also not great for the children in our space. So I really rely on modeling and sort of narrating myself why I'm doing what I'm doing. And they can take it or leave it, but they've heard it. because I think what I get labeled with a lot is
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (14:37)
Well, Heather just let them do whatever they want. Or as one former boss said, I know you'd let them swing from the chandeliers if they wanted to. That's a little bit of an overstatement exaggeration. But if you're going to insult me by saying, I let children do what they want, you're to have to work a little harder than that. But that way, at least they can know there's some intention. So it's not me lecturing or trying to get into something in the hallway later. But I might say, you know, I might
Amie Fabry (14:40)
you
Yep. Yep.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (15:02)
Because it benefits the children too, for me to just say out loud why I did something or why I made a decision. Or I might say, I've been watching them play for a long time. This is so cool. Here's what I noticed. And just make a quick connection. And just have little bits of sharing there. It's not always effective. Sometimes it is. I worked with one. I've worked with a couple of co-teachers that
Amie Fabry (15:05)
Hmm, absolutely.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (15:27)
really were open to that and we came to a much better understanding. I worked with one who just did not like working with me and I got moved to another room. But I mean, I think when you're able to have that daily kind of experience with them, you can just do a little at a time. Or I just really love to use photos.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (15:51)
And in the states, each state has to have early learning standards. so I can, I'm in Indiana, I can use the Indiana early learning standards and look at a photo of a child playing and put a caption on there that is authentically saying, here's the early learning foundation they're getting practice with here. And that can really get people's attention or, you know,
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (16:14)
a board about photos of children using loose parts with captions about the value and connect it to school readiness. You know, we can make those connections authentically. It's not like we're tricking anyone. ⁓ It's not that I'm lying based on my audience. think play is so authentically the best way for children to learn that we can make the authentic case. But we have to
Amie Fabry (16:21)
Hmm.
No, exactly.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (16:39)
be curious and do that work ourselves to get that good foundation.
Amie Fabry (16:43)
just love everything about what you're saying. ⁓ And I think...
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (16:44)
Because I felt like
I was really going around in circles.
Amie Fabry (16:48)
No, it's brilliant. Because I think, you know, I do think that we often think advocacy has to look like getting out your soapbox or it has to look like, you know, writing a white paper. I mean, you do some of these things and you do them so well. But the reality is sometimes we're actually trying to broaden the perspectives or the understandings of the people that we work closest with who might be colleagues who are also teachers and educators or administrators. And I think that, you know,
the work that you're talking about and the advocacy that you've done on the ground is so powerful because rather than try and give someone a lecture and convince them that play is the better way, you're actually showing them what it looks like in practice, you know, to actually point out and model the intention behind the planning that you're doing or the observations that you're making. You know, the documentation and the links to frameworks and curriculum like,
that is such a powerful way, I think, to actually shift and broaden people's perspectives. Because I think one of the biggest challenges with play is because it doesn't come with a manual, you know, like it's not a program or it's not scripted. It's actually a harder way to teach. It's far more rewarding and far more beneficial for our children, but it's a harder way to teach. And so I think for a lot of educators, when there's a choice between, you know, a kind of
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (17:53)
⁓ Yeah.
Yes.
Amie Fabry (18:11)
program or play, where do I start? You know, and one of the barriers, I'd love to know if this is a barrier you're experiencing too. In my research, I found that for a lot of educators, you know, there's decisions that are made that are out of their hands, but a lot of it comes down to do I actually know how to put this into practice? You know, and when we think about planning to being in play with children and the roles we take and how we document that, they are challenging concepts to sit with and
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (18:28)
in
Amie Fabry (18:39)
know what I also liked about what you were saying is the curiosity. You know we have to also be curious about what is happening for children, what thinking is happening, how are we showing up and I think that lens of curiosity just creates more possibilities. So modeling that process must be really powerful you know not always everyone's cup of tea perhaps as you said.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (19:00)
Right, it's a skill.
mean, none of us are born knowing how to do any of this. So it comes down to, do I want to learn how to do this? Do I want to learn more about this? ⁓ Do I believe that play is effective? And do I believe that mentoring can be effective? And do I believe that it's worth trying to change people's minds? ⁓ It really has to come from that place.
Amie Fabry (19:05)
No. No!
Hmm. Hmm.
you
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (19:25)
of being sort of conviction driven.
Amie Fabry (19:28)
Yeah, yeah. So is that what drives you to do this work?
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (19:31)
Yes. Yeah, I think, I mean, it has to. Someone once called early childhood work deeply hopeful. You know, I read that somewhere. I wish I remember exactly who, even though it's just a short phrase, but that's in my mind all the time because there are so many barriers and the days can be long and hard and children are very stressed right now worldwide, it seems like, and teachers are talking a lot about.
Amie Fabry (19:33)
Yeah
you
Hmm.
Mm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (19:59)
how much more behaviors they're seeing that are super challenging to work with. So if we don't have that hope that our work can make a difference, it's gonna be harder on us. I do often when I'm teaching, because in a lot of places in the United States, you can, and maybe this is true in Australia, I don't know, but you can work in an early childhood, like childcare center.
Amie Fabry (20:12)
Absolutely.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (20:24)
without anything but your high school diploma. Like no other kind of training you can get right in there. So, which I did for 20 years before I went back to college and got my degree. But now as a professor, I have students who are currently working, you know, with young children. And so there's a little bit of unlearning and you have to believe, you have to have some hope that it's going to be worth it to be willing to unlearn and then relearn some things.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (20:49)
But I definitely have days where I feel like, I just do a whole day of teaching just so that my students can go to work and get in trouble? Like, I really, am I setting them up for trouble and then I have to get back to this? Do I believe I can make a difference? And ⁓ I do, so I keep doing it.
Amie Fabry (20:57)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Yeah, good for you. I love this, you know, I love the concept of hope, you know, for the profession for children, but also as, you know, as leaders in the sector, you know, we also have to have that sense of hope that what we're doing makes a difference, you know, in whatever kind of shape or form our role looks now, particularly for those of us who are no longer working directly with children, but you know, to step out of that, you still need a sense of hope that you can make a difference and
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (21:17)
Mm-hmm.
Amie Fabry (21:36)
you know, maybe that's in supporting the educators. ⁓ Because without that, you know, what are we doing here? It's, it's really hard to keep going. ⁓ I'd love to know what are some of the well, I guess, have there been challenges for you in this work, you know, talking about advocacy and reaching different people with different needs and you know, sounds easier than it probably is.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (21:39)
Yeah.
Right? Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. ⁓
Amie Fabry (21:59)
potentially in practice sometimes. Have you
faced any challenges doing this work?
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (22:05)
I mean, yes, I, you know, I talked about just having some tension with co-teachers. That's definitely been a challenge. ⁓ I've been fired for being too vocal about what I thought, you know, were disconnects that I was seeing between, you know, what we know about child development and what was really happening in the classroom. there is just this, I think too, I feel like.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (22:27)
The dominant discourse is really powerful. The dominant discourse that quality means it looks like school. learning only happens if the adults are in charge of it. And if I'm directly instructing, even with two-year-olds, that's really the dominant voice. so it is really, it is hard. Those are challenges. There's times when I get really tired of it.
⁓ That's the beauty of social media for me is that I can connect with people all over the world who are also seeing those challenges and working through that so that I don't feel alone. And that's honestly what I hear most often when someone who's listened to the podcast emails me with feedback. It's almost always, I thought I was alone. I thought I was the only one working in this way or fighting for play or, you know,
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (23:15)
trying to think and do differently. And that gets me through the challenging times, but definitely there's challenges, yeah.
Amie Fabry (23:23)
Yeah, so how do you, you you mentioned getting tired and how do you keep going? Like how do you navigate these challenges and keep going? You've been doing this for quite some time, you know, which is really admirable. But how do you keep going? You know, I'm thinking about the sector at the moment, which is particularly burnt out, feeling really tired and exhausted in terms of workload. You know, they're still really undervalued in our societies and we're seeing a lot more challenges with
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (23:32)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yes.
Amie Fabry (23:49)
that dominant discourse as you're talking about the academic pressure that's just creeping into more and more of the early years, challenges in terms of complex needs of children, families, like the job's kind of getting harder. And there's never been a more important time I think for us to have advocates for play, more play and more leadership in the sector. How do we keep going? Do you have any?
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (23:50)
you
Yes.
Amie Fabry (24:11)
wisdom advice, learning that you can share that helps you.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (24:12)
You
I mean, connection and relationship. The things I was just talking about, about people saying I thought I was the only one. Me too, I've definitely been that person who felt like I'm the only one I know who's trying to, or who thinks the way I think, or who has read the things I've read about, about what's going on. So I mean, think connection and finding relationship is so important.
Amie Fabry (24:18)
Hmm.
Yep.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (24:37)
I think it's a cliche and I don't like to use the phrase self-care because everyone assumes that means something simple and easy like bubble bath or deep breathing. Those things are great. I'm a huge fan of baths. play comes into it for us there too. Like what is it if we look at the definition of play as being something you choose to do and it's
Amie Fabry (24:45)
Mm, yeah.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (24:59)
It's intrinsically motivated and there's maybe not even a product at the end. What kinds of things can we do as adults that bring play into our lives? Because the same things about play that help build children's resilience will help to build our resilience. And the same things we know about relationship and children and resilience during stressful times is true about us. And the benefits to mental health that we play has for children can be true for us.
Amie Fabry (25:05)
Mmm.
you
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (25:26)
to not to minimize mental health situations and challenges, but it is true that there are benefits that can help us kind of maintain our psyche a little bit and our spirituality ⁓ just in terms of feeling connected and believing that there's something good to work towards.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (25:49)
So,
Amie Fabry (25:49)
yeah.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (25:50)
you I think those are things that keep me going. But I honestly, you you said that play is a hard way to be a teacher, and that's absolutely true. But I think in a way, it's less as a less stressful way to be a teacher. So much of what I hear my students who are currently teaching or at conferences, if I'm talking to people who are working with young children, so much of what I hear is,
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (26:12)
the big behaviors make it really stressful and hard and then they don't get admin support and then they don't get family support and they feel like they're doing it all on their own. And if I ask, tell me more about the specific behaviors that are hurting you or that are making it difficult for you. It's almost always during a time when we're trying to control them into a school-like atmosphere. It's almost always they won't sit still when I need them to sit still or they won't stand in line when I need them to.
Amie Fabry (26:26)
Mmm. Mmm.
Yeah.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (26:39)
Transitions are hard and they
lose interest in my circle time. It's almost always an issue of control because they won't fit this structure. And that's why I think if we can move away from feeling like the whole group needs to move through everything all day long and we need to stick to this 15 or 20 minute time blocks.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (27:02)
If we move away from that, we're not going to feel like failures all day long when children are just being children. ⁓ When they're just doing things that are developmentally to be expected, we won't see that as my personal failure as a teacher. ⁓ And we have to learn a different way to define ourselves as teachers. But I do think it makes it easier to stay in the work.
Amie Fabry (27:10)
Absolutely.
Mm, agree.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (27:28)
I did quit once,
I thought I was burned out and I got a job at a bank and hated it so much. I was like, I cannot wait to get back to it. I do not care about your money.
Amie Fabry (27:33)
Wow. Yeah.
Yep. Yep. It's so it's so true, isn't it? Like I do, I do think it's a harder way to teach, but I do think it's more rewarding. And I think, I think we see, I think we see partly burnout and dissatisfaction in the work we're doing when we lose our professional autonomy to let go a little bit and have less control and to be playful.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (27:45)
Yes.
Yes.
Amie Fabry (28:03)
And for all the reasons that you mentioned, that as adults, we actually should find play in our own lives, is just resonated so strongly with me. Because of all those benefits for children, they're also benefits for us as human beings, even if we're much older. But I think when we think about play and putting it into classrooms, early learning centers, I think that's where it's through play that we can genuinely connect with children.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (28:16)
Mm-hmm.
Amie Fabry (28:28)
is good for us as educators, but it's also good for children, you know, rather than just getting through activities to tick off lists, you know, but actually to be present to be in the moment. That's where the joy is, you know, and I think I really feel for educators who are losing the ability to do that, because I think that's where a lot of extra stress and burden is coming, you know, from the control, but also they're losing their professional autonomy, their
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (28:45)
Yes.
Amie Fabry (28:55)
they're losing the joy and the love of being an educator because that's where that's where the gold is, you know, in those moments with children. ⁓ If we can be curious and yeah, be there.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (28:57)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, we have a lot of conversations,
my students and I, about if someone is saying, no, you have to do it this way. There's still moments, there's still time during the day when there's play, where there can be just like real kind of true play. And then during the times when you are expected to be in charge and go through a certain, you can still look at it and think, where could I add permission for them to move more during this? Where could I add
Amie Fabry (29:13)
Hmm.
Mmm, yeah.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (29:31)
permission for them to leave when they're done with it. Or instead of doing this with as one whole group of 20 children, could I do it with four groups of five children while my co-teacher works with the rest of the group and really tailor it and individualize it and be able to add more play? So we do a lot of like critical review of curriculum and lesson plans and think, you know, where can they move here? How can they?
Amie Fabry (29:42)
Yeah.
Hmm
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (29:55)
have a little bit of agency ⁓ so that we're still doing the things we're told to do. But we're doing it. I don't know if you know Lisa Murphy, but she's a very famous early childhood person in the States. She's a rock star. But she a long time ago said something like, sometimes you just have to be as developmentally in a
Amie Fabry (29:57)
Yeah.
well.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (30:17)
appropriately inappropriate as you can. I didn't quite get it out smooth, but that's essentially what she means, I think, is find ways to do what you know they need within the structure that you're expected, you know, or feeling pressured to do, which is another way that we're skillful teachers. Yeah.
Amie Fabry (30:23)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Yeah, totally. I totally agree with that. Absolutely.
Absolutely. And I think even when other people are not telling us or valuing, you know, the professional expertise that we bring to our roles, I think we have to not lose sight of that. And, you know, I think that in itself can be a piece of advocacy, right? Like just holding firm to, yeah, to what we know is actually best and trying to find those opportunities. Where can I bring more play?
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (30:49)
Yes. And leadership.
Amie Fabry (30:58)
and developmentally appropriate practice into the, even the constraints of what I've been asked to do is so important. Heather, it's been so wonderful to talk to you. I could just talk to you for hours, I think, but such a great conversation. Lovely to connect and hear about the work that you're doing in your advocacy. Before we close out our conversation, I'm wondering, do you have any final thoughts or advice for anyone who's, I guess, trying to advocate or
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (31:06)
and
Amie Fabry (31:24)
make a difference to the lives of children and who, you know, are still holding on to that hope that you mentioned.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (31:30)
Yeah. I mean, I think you have to first sort of accept that we're not going to change the system right away. Like it might just be that one parent that you talk to at the end of the day about something great their child did during that day. And then they come back the next day with a story of something they noticed at home. Like, I mean, those little we have to be aware of or looking for those little signs of forward movement.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (31:52)
There may be a big thunderclap and everything changes and that's wonderful, but to keep moving forward and to kind of keep ourselves hopeful, we have to train ourselves to find those little things. And so whether it's just noticing and thinking about it or writing it down or putting a note in your phone, like document it somehow so that you've got this little list of small glimmers of hope that you can go back and...
Amie Fabry (32:05)
That's beautiful advice. And I think too, you know, I think we do feel frustrated because we want to change the system. So, you know, that is very hard to do. You can't eat the whole elephant at once. ⁓ I think, you know, like you're saying though, small differences that we make, whether it's planting a seed with a colleague or a family member, you know, noticing those where we can actually have an impact and make a real difference. But then, you know, also remembering
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (32:26)
Yeah. Yes.
Amie Fabry (32:45)
those moments along the way, I think does help us to keep going and see the difference that we're making and see how far we've come. So we don't constantly only look at changing this big enormous system, which is really hard to do. And the reality is, know, changing the system is going to take a lot of people doing a lot of small things to get to that point. So don't set ourselves up to fail is kind of what I'm hearing. And notice the great work that we are doing, which I think is really sound advice.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (32:55)
huh, yes. Yeah.
Amie Fabry (33:11)
Thank you so much, Heather. It's been an absolute blast talking to you. I could talk to you all day. Thank you for the work you do. Thanks for being such a great advocate for play right behind you.
Heather Bernt-Santy (she/her) (33:20)
Yeah. Yay,
yeah, thank you so much for having me on.
Amie Fabry (33:22)
My pleasure.
