Education World Forum: Gavin Dykes
Is education a globally recognised construct, is it universal? What are the environments in which the best transformations occur and which regions have unique and interesting approaches?
In this Fourth episode of Education Transformed, Louka speaks with Gavin Dykes, a wealth of knowledge about the unique approaches to education globally with https://www.theewf.org/ .
Gavin Dykes is Programme Director of the Education World Forum (2004-present) held in London and for the Asian Summit on Education and Skills (2015-present) in Bangalore, Mumbai and Delhi. He contributes to advisory boards for ISTE, University of the People, and Karanga, he is on the board of Lyfta and is a judge for the Empathy Week Awards.
Gavin has worked closely with governments, corporations, foundations, schools and universities in many countries. His writing includes co-authorship of “Building and sustaining national education technologies agencies: Lessons, models and case studies from around the world” (The World Bank 2017) and “Aspire High – Imagining Tomorrow’s School Today” (Corwin Press 2017).
He has moderated and chaired international discussions including OECD Skills Summits in Norway and Portugal, Virtual TIESS in India, and Education Fast Forward debates across the world. For education to achieve its best possible outcomes, Gavin thinks we all, whether learner, teacher or leader, would do well to listen more, collaborate better and innovate constantly.
Check out this season’s partner publication: https://www.diplomaticourier.com/issue/transformed-the-case-for-education-transformation
[transcript auto generated]
00:00:02:02 - 00:00:21:15
Louka Parry
Hello friends, and welcome to the Lightning Feature podcast. I'm your host, Louka Parry. Thank you for joining us again and welcome to 2023. I hope you've had a really delightful transition into this new year and that you able to let go of some of the challenges that really have existed for all of us over the last couple of years and renew your passion for the work that you do in the world.
00:00:22:11 - 00:00:56:20
Louka Parry
We are continuing with our Education Transformed series, and it's my absolute delight to have Gavin Dykes joining us for today's conversation. He is many things, including the program director of the Education World Forum since 2004. In fact, which is held in London and convenes a range of different ministers from education ministers from all over the world. He's also a director of the Asian Summit on Education and Skills in Bangalore, Mumbai and Delhi, and he contributes to the advisory boards for Esty University of the People and Current.
00:00:57:12 - 00:01:24:22
Louka Parry
He's also on the board of Lifter and is the judge for the Empathy Week Awards. Gavin has got a huge amount of experience in working with governments, corporations, foundations, schools and universities. Again, all over the world. He is quite prolific in his writing, including how my education technologies be sustained led One of the case studies from around the world, and that was published through the World Bank and Aspire High Imagining Tomorrow's School Today by Conference 2017.
00:01:26:03 - 00:01:32:16
Louka Parry
Gavin I could keep reading, if I may, that it's a delight to have you here and I can talk to you directly. Thank you for joining us on the Learning Future podcast.
00:01:33:13 - 00:01:38:22
Gavin Dykes
Oh, it's delight to be part of it and thank you Louka for inviting me to join in with it.
00:01:39:12 - 00:02:04:04
Louka Parry
Well, you know, like the conversation really that I'd love us to explore today, Gavin, is one around transformation itself. I think, you know, in just before we started recording, we've been discussing some of the disruptions that are coming our way around artificial intelligence and chat. You know, you've had a long history of working in education with technology and understanding its implications and also what we might do at policy level as policymakers.
00:02:04:05 - 00:02:20:07
Louka Parry
So my first question to you really is how do you understand transformation as opposed to reform or improvement? What what kind of comes up into your consciousness, into your your awareness when you think about that, that word transformation?
00:02:21:11 - 00:02:53:08
Gavin Dykes
I you know, I am I'm kind of uncomfortable that transformation and part of this comes from looking looking at innovation over years in innovation and education and thinking about a, you know, how you get innovations to stick and how you can make an innovation work, which works beautifully in one location, move to another. Am I thinking about things that are underpinning the way that education works?
00:02:53:08 - 00:03:20:22
Gavin Dykes
I'm sorry, this is kind of going off on a tangent, but I, I, when I worked or was seconded to government briefly actually was for a few years. But and then in that time, one of the things that which hit me very much was what that number one, I'd moved from spending all my time trying to raise the money to doing stuff.
00:03:21:11 - 00:04:02:11
Gavin Dykes
Yeah, all my time trying to spend the money, which had to do with the rules, which were very interesting indeed. Yeah. Within that, within that bucket of things. And there you have capital and you have revenue. But capital is relatively easy to come by and revenue is not. So your revenue spending, you've got to be particularly careful or forgive me if this is all changed by suspected harm, but the when I'm trying to transform education work was really important.
00:04:02:14 - 00:04:16:22
Gavin Dykes
If I was trying to transform education. And the really important thing in transforming, transferring those innovations in a changing practice or doing something differently.
00:04:17:05 - 00:04:17:14
Louka Parry
Yeah.
00:04:17:15 - 00:04:37:20
Gavin Dykes
Is the people. Yes, people as a group. So actually, I think not a lot of our focus when we talk about transformation lands on, you know, it could be to change. Yeah. Or it could be it could be using computers as it was at one stage.
00:04:38:02 - 00:04:38:10
Louka Parry
Yes.
00:04:39:23 - 00:05:12:03
Gavin Dykes
Or something cleverer, I'll argue it's more schools. You know, actually the fundamental to me is about bringing people together. How do people share? I think about working with collective intelligence of the community that you serve or the whole community that you serve. And I love examples where I learn good things about what happened. There was a an innovation conference in Brazil I heard of.
00:05:12:21 - 00:05:52:10
Gavin Dykes
But then suddenly and got in that this was a couple of years ago. I heard of it. And what they did was they took the teacher from school, but then they took the best pupil from the school and the third person in the party was the most difficult pupil from the school. Oh, that's great. And I just thought it was wonderful because the best people in school and this is perhaps overplaying it a bit, but the best pupil of the school is somebody who will work within the system and who would come up with ideas.
00:05:52:21 - 00:06:25:11
Gavin Dykes
The difficult pupil was somebody who would do things. Mm. And if you can bring together those pieces, I, I'm not sure if that conference descended into chaos or whether that was hugely successful, but I think that kind of thinking, which young people together, which lowers the dissonance, which creates innovation and which encourages thought, but is also kind of, if you like, touching on collective intelligence, too.
00:06:25:12 - 00:06:34:04
Gavin Dykes
So we're not just single track focused. Yeah, and all of that. And I apologize if I thought just a little bit more.
00:06:34:08 - 00:06:35:00
Louka Parry
Of course. Yeah.
00:06:35:00 - 00:06:58:08
Gavin Dykes
What I also felt was that also is, number one, it's all about people. Number two, when we're trying to do things, we we tend to think of, you know, this is the answer. This is what it's going to be. Whereas what I always wanted to set up the Institute of Balance, but I kind of think it's a stupid thing.
00:06:58:08 - 00:07:25:08
Gavin Dykes
It's just an idea. But the balance is what we need because by by getting the most difficult people and the best people or getting the group of people that we have standing in front of us or sitting in front of us, who we're trying to work with to help them learn or whatever the strategy that you use should be the one that fits and is worked out with the people that you're seeking to work with.
00:07:25:16 - 00:07:34:23
Gavin Dykes
Hmm. This is true. Talking about policy and ministers. It's true. If you're talking about teachers or leaders or if you're talking about learners.
00:07:35:09 - 00:07:55:19
Louka Parry
Oh, wow. Gavin That's wonderful. I mean, a few things come up for me in that. The first is that for us to evolve, we need to be involved. And one of the processes that we use a lot here at the Learning Future and and through other work oranga and other platforms and, and communities of which we're part is co-design.
00:07:55:19 - 00:08:29:01
Louka Parry
It's, it's looking at diversity as strength and then understanding that it's only with the multiple perspectives in mind that we can actually synthesize something that it that is of a higher quality and what we currently have. The other the other part that comes up for me, I mean, you've worked a lot with very senior people in government. Gavin And so the other as an advisor, I was a convener of the Education Boat Forum, and so, you know, when ministers, you know, 130, 140 ministers, however many you get, you know, convened.
00:08:29:19 - 00:08:56:01
Louka Parry
What's the kind of narrative that you find is most powerful for them? Because that's you've stated, I think, quite, quite clearly. You know, you've got capital and you got revenue, so you might put a new building in or make your capital expenses a bunch of new technology, but actually the less sexy thing, the least sexy thing is, is actually doing the long term transformation work with people that bringing educators in in a world that's so rapidly shifting.
00:08:56:16 - 00:09:24:03
Louka Parry
So what I guess you noticing in in that kind of ministry level minister space policy maker space, knowing that at the UNGA last year, you know, the summit was the transforming Education Summit and yeah, what's your reflections on that? When we talk about transformation, do you find that this is getting getting cuts through is being picked up? What's your thinking at this point?
00:09:25:05 - 00:09:55:03
Gavin Dykes
I think it's clear there's a number of questions in there that we could pick up. I think the we are all subject to an awful lot of opinion and different things coming through and that makes sense. What makes things difficult? Each of our circumstances are personal or national. If it's our national education system, there are particular issues and particular countries.
00:09:55:03 - 00:10:18:15
Gavin Dykes
All kinds of different things go on. And I kind of recall it actually think just as an example, that the kind of conversations that I've had over there over many years and one that sticks in my mind is I, you know, you try and think of, you know, how can I connect to somebody? And it's like, you know, how how many schools are you responsible for?
00:10:19:04 - 00:10:47:09
Gavin Dykes
And this minister and I won't mention which country because it does must happen. It is and the answer and the minister thought for a moment and said to her, well, we've got 18,000 schools at no schooling, but we've got 18,000 groups of people and we got about 1000 buildings. And I thought that's just stayed with me, as I just said, a really good answer.
00:10:47:21 - 00:10:59:00
Gavin Dykes
And that a you know, because it just within that answer you can paint your picture of the challenges that that country might be facing.
00:10:59:07 - 00:10:59:12
Louka Parry
Yeah.
00:10:59:16 - 00:11:42:06
Gavin Dykes
And the sorts of level of challenges. So I, I think the big thing is to seek to create a narrative that people can respond to, but to avoid boxing people in so that what you get is a standard answers. Otherwise, you're serving one part of the world or one part of the prejudices which you naturally have. And so creating the it's like buying the the frame and the paper on which to draw, other than taking a drawing and just adding to that drawing.
00:11:42:12 - 00:12:23:19
Gavin Dykes
Yeah. So to keep it open and in that way, also by keeping it open, I think one one you will hear about more about what is what different people's experiences and to you to do you open the door for people to learn more from each other and to cause them to reflect. And I think also if you go down the single path type of thing where you're actually you have in widen something you're pushing towards as you set your agenda, you, you, you miss a lot, but you also generate resistance of a kind.
00:12:24:05 - 00:12:53:00
Gavin Dykes
Hmm. So resistance. So I think whenever you're dealing with these conferences, remember, the best and most important conversations will happen between people and between people. Not the world, not those on the stage. Yeah. So what you want you want from the conversation, from the stage is things that stimulate thought it was done, thought to narrow it.
00:12:53:00 - 00:13:17:17
Louka Parry
I gave it. I'm really I'd love you know from your vantage point with your I suppose definition of transformation as being people centered in some way and that the the piece for me is transformation towards what I mean my my personal manifesto how professional manifesto the learning which really is around this, you know, human centered education system. What does that mean?
00:13:17:17 - 00:13:59:02
Louka Parry
Multidimensional and social, emotional and cognitive. And we can even add physical and spiritual into that space. And one that really is as much around the development of capabilities that enable you to continue to learn throughout the course of your life. So I don't think any of that's all that groundbreaking, frankly. But I wonder when you look at the countries with whom you work and that you support, if you were to kind of group the countries and just in different levels of ambition more than where they currently are, like what's the kind of breakdown when you look at the world across as a as a globe, which countries do you think are really on a transformation
00:13:59:23 - 00:14:22:08
Louka Parry
trajectory and which ones do you think? And I'm not not specifically, but what kind of number, what percentages do you think are moving towards this moment in time? post-COVID, where resources are squeezed by an inflationary environment economically as well? Yeah. Do you have a sense of a of countries really are they going for it at this point? Are we snapping back to old ways?
00:14:22:08 - 00:14:27:00
Louka Parry
What's your sense from from your vantage point?
00:14:27:00 - 00:14:52:02
Gavin Dykes
I think I mean, there's a real risk of snapping back to where we've been before. And I think that is an opportunity, the direction that things move. And but it's the natural one because actually the measures we've got to offer and I'm not talking about school assessment, but on the other hand, school assessment is one of those things that take you by and through staged.
00:14:52:14 - 00:15:17:07
Gavin Dykes
Yes. And if they don't, then what are we going to do? We've talked for years about actually how learning is driven by the exams. So what are your rules for running a school? What are your rules for? And, you know, whatever part of education you're for, what are your rules for yourself? You know, I hope I need to get those grades.
00:15:17:20 - 00:15:32:02
Gavin Dykes
Yeah. You know, if you're if you're in the mindset, it's very difficult for people generally to to move on and now it seems as though I'm running away from that answer. In a way.
00:15:32:16 - 00:15:34:24
Louka Parry
I don't mean much, I think.
00:15:36:12 - 00:16:01:00
Gavin Dykes
But I think it's I think it is difficult. And I but I think what we need to look at, what we need to try to look at these really open conversations so that we start to think about things differently or, you know, another way or another way of doing the stuff. I mean, it's a countries are very different.
00:16:01:05 - 00:16:27:05
Gavin Dykes
So I always like my carpool and stuff, which was I think it was Michael, but I well, he amongst others have talked about actually when when schools are working or not working, you put you don't put the best school with the worst school together. You put the schools which are roughly equal performance so they can help each other improve together.
00:16:27:11 - 00:17:03:02
Gavin Dykes
And you've got a master student relationship rather than together. And so that's where the social dynamics and those kind of social things actually work. And another thing is G put he put China and Malta together was 400,000 people. The others I can't remember at 1.4 I think. Yeah, yeah. But it's a so you know if you look for us where there are similarities.
00:17:03:12 - 00:17:03:17
Louka Parry
There.
00:17:03:18 - 00:17:24:22
Gavin Dykes
I think are what I do but I look there are likely to be similar problems because of the structure that they position and then try and get those working together. Mhm. And share some. Yeah. And that that can be about making the conversation in a different you.
00:17:25:22 - 00:17:26:07
Louka Parry
Yeah.
00:17:27:14 - 00:17:30:20
Gavin Dykes
It doesn't it. Not necessarily happening on a stage.
00:17:31:01 - 00:18:05:05
Louka Parry
Yeah. I wonder Gavin would you point, I mean would you point to particular case studies of ongoing and sustained transformation. I mean often you know, you think about Finland or Estonia most recently due to their PISA results, Singapore, I mean these places are often sometimes Canada and Korea, you know. But would you would you say the provinces? The provinces, Yeah, that's the good point, because by you know, who would you point to and say, actually this country under this leadership is really having a a crack?
00:18:05:11 - 00:18:28:20
Louka Parry
You know, because as you stated, the context is quite noise. And, you know, there's also resource challenges in particular for much of the world, particularly the majority world. So, yeah, what would you say are this? You know, we should take a look at this because so often it's come to us, you know, go to Finland or go to Singapore rather than have a look at what's happening in this lower resource environment and the innovation that's taking place here.
00:18:28:20 - 00:18:35:16
Louka Parry
I think that's something that we should absolutely elevate and it's the work that we do at current, as you're well aware as well. So yeah, what would you point to?
00:18:36:03 - 00:19:12:02
Gavin Dykes
Because I think part of it is part of it can be looking at to necessarily go to the country, doesn't necessarily go to the government. And this is not to do during the government because they may be enabling this job. But sometimes look at what the foundations are doing. Yeah. And foundations are I think a good can be a hidden gem of what, you know, recognizing a particular problem, working on the ground usually.
00:19:12:02 - 00:19:39:11
Gavin Dykes
So working with real people, doing that kind of thing. And so I and I hesitate to pick out any in particular because then it's kind of overloading it. I'm actually you you risk in time sometimes you risk kind of moving it from a position of doing the fantastic work they're doing to kind of looking to the limelight and.
00:19:39:19 - 00:19:40:21
Louka Parry
Talking about the.
00:19:41:05 - 00:20:27:00
Gavin Dykes
You know, Yeah, yeah. So it's it's actually there's, there's often quiet work and organic work that is done by foundations, which is is wonderful if I'm looking at the countries. I mean, it's interesting because the when you start doing things on the national scale, it's difficult. But I, I always take and Patsy would be a better person to speak about it and I but I think the the fundamental for Finland was when it as a country recognized that it wanted to greater social equity.
00:20:27:10 - 00:21:00:03
Gavin Dykes
Yeah. And there were they so it was driven by kind of in a sense a higher philosophy, philosophical outlook and it's could be in a sense, judged against that. So it wasn't trying to get a just course of Pisa, it wasn't trying to improve it. It was actually doing something which was about a particular of particular issues that that country had and seeking to address them in a way that was supported by the population.
00:21:00:24 - 00:21:40:10
Gavin Dykes
So I'd go, Oh, oh, Finnish people, please forgive me if I'm way off target with that. But that's that's what I've taken away from what I witnessed. And I think it's an it is an example, fantastic example. Meantime, going to another school in India, another situation this India's national education plan is worth a look. It's then that the because of the size of the education and the size of the challenge, that's going to take a lot of effort.
00:21:40:10 - 00:22:19:24
Gavin Dykes
And actually I to to work but the the aims and the targets are exciting and there's a lot that many of us can well I don't like from my and many I it's it's going to take time because you're having to put the social constructs in place for for it to happen to take people with you. There are some remarkable things that are going on there and I think that holds him for a great hope in terms of sustained, sustained transformation as this process.
00:22:20:04 - 00:22:23:01
Louka Parry
Yeah, it is. You know, the.
00:22:23:01 - 00:22:26:21
Gavin Dykes
Best best transformation is happen when you don't call transformations.
00:22:27:02 - 00:23:05:03
Louka Parry
Yeah, that's great. That's actually a really great point. And I feel like just to your earlier point on Finland, there does seem to be something about kind of like Campbell's law, you know, this idea that when we start paying attention to the metric themselves to corrupt the entire system. And so this is what happens when we teach to the test as opposed to creating, you know, a socially equitable education system, frankly, a country and quality teaching and learning with quality people that, you know, an elevating status of the profession, all of a sudden the results will take care of themselves because we focused on actually the core activity as opposed to sometimes, you know, trying
00:23:05:03 - 00:23:10:05
Louka Parry
to work our way up the league table, so to speak. And then I think.
00:23:11:22 - 00:23:43:00
Gavin Dykes
It's all grade related that one of the things I work with little organization on, but at it had a big impact on some places and on if you if it's encapsulated in this little story but the PR ask if she's starting with a new class. Yes today one of the things you could do is have a conversation with the class about what would you like our reputation to be?
00:23:43:11 - 00:24:13:05
Gavin Dykes
Hmm. And, you know, reputation within the school. So you can talk about a sense of values. You can talk to know that that's fine, but that's just nice little conversation. Then say, Right. Well, what would be an example of me showing whatever you've landed on us, the thing that you want to do kind of thing that it could be is we're supportive.
00:24:13:05 - 00:24:37:14
Gavin Dykes
Well, what's an example of you being supportive to to one of the other pupils in the class? What's that? So you get a small list of the kinds of examples of behavior that demonstrate that you're working towards it. Then you say, Well, you can do it in a better paper or less. Well, we had an ED did this mass.
00:24:37:14 - 00:25:07:20
Gavin Dykes
You can then feed that into the behaviors and then you can self ward. If you believe you've acted in that way, you can get one of your peers towards you a credit or you can get your teacher or mentor to award you a credit. So you've got different credits for heading in the right direction and you can do a review after a time or week, whatever.
00:25:07:20 - 00:25:24:20
Gavin Dykes
You know, you can make this very complicated, make it very simple. Yeah, but and, but the fundamental is you've had a conversation where you agree what it is you're aiming for. Yeah. So those that I come back to what I've been talking about the people part.
00:25:24:24 - 00:25:25:07
Louka Parry
Yeah.
00:25:26:07 - 00:26:05:10
Gavin Dykes
It transformation these sorts of tools and there are a lot of those tools. So I've been pressing to find out what other tools will be called for socially using behavior, you know, just so that we will become part of it. And I think there is in the background happening some growth with those sorts of tools. But and when I was working on technology and with the government in in England, we the agency back at that time had moved on to something else now.
00:26:05:10 - 00:26:23:04
Gavin Dykes
But the they had what they called a self assessment tool. Yeah. Not looked through areas that the operation of the school so management pupils had a teacher is part of it the give the kids the technologies.
00:26:24:02 - 00:26:24:10
Louka Parry
Yeah.
00:26:24:13 - 00:27:07:08
Gavin Dykes
And it what it encouraged was a discussion within the school about you know where are we with this. Because everything was measured on the scale that statements we we we have no computers at all and artillery through to we've got lots and doing well you know so you put yourself in each of these things and you know and so you get an assessment, a self assessment of where you are, what technology big thing in this, which I think was probably forgotten at times, is that this should stimulate a conversation and not in the headmaster.
00:27:07:24 - 00:27:19:11
Gavin Dykes
Sorry, that's a very old fashioned idea. The study loss or headmistress of study but a conversation with among the teachers.
00:27:19:20 - 00:27:20:01
Louka Parry
Yeah.
00:27:20:13 - 00:27:42:01
Gavin Dykes
Among pupils, Yeah. Among the paper. The parents of the appeals, among the community around the school. So what you're getting in is an assessment of everyone. When you have that assessment, you can begin to prioritize where your effort should go in terms of making a change to the way school is achieving in that area.
00:27:42:09 - 00:28:21:11
Louka Parry
Yeah, I'm really struck even by just your language here. You know, there's a clear theme in our conversation as it's as it's taking place where it's it's a it's kind of nothing about us without us. Clearly, it's like the importance of co-design and co-authorship. I'm kind of hearing as well. And of course, a focus not on the tool, but as the tool, as a way to to take to kind of increase the focus on the human being, on the people part, as opposed to, you know, I think and, you know, our colleague Andre Slack, I've heard him say this many times, but, you know, we really want to support first class human beings to be
00:28:21:11 - 00:28:47:16
Louka Parry
developed, not second class robots. And so if we're if we're just trying to kind of, I don't know, interact with technologies in a way that really isn't serving us, isn't creating new value. Right. If we look at the learning campus from the OECD, of course, which you know very well, you know, this idea and reconciling conflicts and dilemmas, you know, these these are the kind of human skills that now we can take these tools and utilize.
00:28:47:16 - 00:29:07:23
Louka Parry
And I think all of us are a little and perhaps governments and I might be a bit stronger as someone not working so closely with governments, but so often, you know, it becomes about, well, it's what's the amounts of or how do we ensure it's when a political cycle we want there to be something happen. And so, yes, it's a capital expense, but, you know, at the end of the day, it's what are the human beings doing?
00:29:07:23 - 00:29:27:09
Louka Parry
How are they behaving? What what learning is taking place, what capabilities are being developed and elevated? And I think that's what I'm taking from our from our chat, really, when we think about the word transformation. But, you know, and in case, you know, evolution, anything moving us forward sort of fast.
00:29:27:09 - 00:29:52:16
Gavin Dykes
And I certainly hope that. Sorry. I think yes, absolutely fair summation. And I think it's also that we're probably going to be measuring things, but we're also very good at measuring all the wrong things. Yeah. When we were I you know, I had a conference at the Institute of Balanced stuff here. This is just to be thought about terms balance.
00:29:52:20 - 00:30:12:14
Gavin Dykes
So I'm not trying to say you need to balance things as to what is right for the audience that you're working with and the people that you're you're you're seeking to support. Yes, but the I, I sorry, I've lost my track in that way.
00:30:13:05 - 00:30:15:03
Louka Parry
No, I think we I'm sorry.
00:30:15:03 - 00:30:31:08
Gavin Dykes
I was talking about disasters and and I have called. It's been a disaster. Yeah. In so many ways. But I remember a conversation with somebody who had lived in Lebanon during the the wars in Lebanon.
00:30:31:17 - 00:30:31:23
Louka Parry
Well.
00:30:32:06 - 00:31:04:23
Gavin Dykes
The dreadful things and talking about and it was a teenager and she said and is now playing a senior role in a major innovative organization in education. And she is she was what I took away from one of our conversations was and how she the skills she had had to develop, the things she had had to learn and the capability she had had to go through a build up.
00:31:05:08 - 00:31:39:10
Gavin Dykes
Yeah. And we're phenomenal. Yeah, It's amazing. Where do they appear on any school report? Yes, I know the same will be true for her. And it doesn't matter whether it's Ebola or it's COVID or it's a great flu from before, There are people who will adapt and take on more senior roles. And I, I don't know what my feeling is when the younger people are given that opportunity.
00:31:39:13 - 00:32:15:09
Gavin Dykes
So, so often they become shining stars. Yeah, they if you if the restrictions on them are not taken away. And I have a picture one way and I'm sorry, but in schools where you sit at our desks we are used to anyway. Yeah, they were, they were systems of control. Whereas actually lifting the lid on the capabilities of people, finding what their real things exams are and fanning the flames of those losing and supporting them and taking them forward.
00:32:16:03 - 00:32:21:05
Gavin Dykes
It is a different way of educating. But yeah, I think we don't see enough of.
00:32:21:18 - 00:32:49:14
Louka Parry
Wonderful Gavin It reminds me of a conversation we've had on this podcast actually with Michael Flynn and, you know, talked about school systems, the command and control downwards historically. But of course what we want them to do is to liberate downwards and to inform upwards. And so that idea of enablement, which you've picked up a couple of times as well, I think is so critical because of course very complex systems in place, especially when we have these global shocks as well.
00:32:50:01 - 00:33:21:12
Louka Parry
But you know, there are many strengths and there's not just the learning loss conversation, there's also what's the capability gain potentially as part of all this. So I've got a final question for you, which is, you know, it's been quite a conversation. We could double click on many of those aspects. But if you were to leave the listeners here that are starting in 2023, thinking about their roles in schools, in education, in the private sector, in nonprofit sector, whatever it is that people are contributing, what is it that you would leave them with?
00:33:21:12 - 00:33:32:19
Louka Parry
Just something to ruminate on or some wisdom that you've picked up over your numerous decades doing this work around transformation, innovation in education?
00:33:32:19 - 00:33:34:13
Gavin Dykes
Well, I wish I was wise. I would.
00:33:35:14 - 00:33:40:02
Louka Parry
Be. Well, it's a wise thing to say.
00:33:40:02 - 00:34:08:11
Gavin Dykes
I think it's I think about the people that you're working with and thinking about how you get the best from and getting the best from. One is not a one way street. It's about them doing the best they can as a result. So it's actually not not falling into the trap of this fixed ways of doing things to think creatively.
00:34:08:11 - 00:34:32:03
Gavin Dykes
And, you know, often I've asked people about, you know, what what's, what's the most memorable lesson you ever had? Great question. It's not very it's not been it's not very often been just a standard day at school. And it's the day the sun shone so brightly that we all felt it would be good to go out. Yes. Talk about what's going on in the world.
00:34:32:09 - 00:34:32:19
Louka Parry
Yes.
00:34:32:19 - 00:34:48:09
Gavin Dykes
Or no or the snow day. We had to work together at home or, you know, something happens. Yes. Start early and you create circumstances. So think also about can you create those circumstances, Get the whole school working together. Yes.
00:34:49:06 - 00:35:11:22
Louka Parry
Yes. I think everybody's answer to that would be social in nature. Wouldn't it be Gavin, be doing things with others as as you said. Gavin, mate, fantastic to speak with you. Thank you so much for your time. And I hope that Northern hemisphere winter passes quickly. Yeah, really appreciate your insights. All the best with the forum this year and look forward to crossing paths in 2023.
00:35:13:02 - 00:35:16:08
Gavin Dykes
Absolutely. Thank you. You take care. Thank you. All the best.