Empowering Educators for Change with Dr Amie Fabry S10E3 (133)
🔥 Are we teaching children, or are we teaching curriculum?
🔥 Hope is a verb
🎙️ Episode Summary
In this conversation, Louka Parry and Dr Amie Fabry explore the critical themes of hope, agency, and the holistic development of children in education. They discuss the importance of play, emotional intelligence, and the need for collaboration among educators, families, and communities to create a nurturing environment for children. The conversation emphasizes the need to focus on the whole child and the profound impact of early childhood education on lifelong learning and development.
👤 About Dr Amie Fabry
Dr Amie Fabry is an experienced educator, researcher and facilitator with a deep passion for transforming learning in the early years. Dr Amie works across education systems to support leaders and teachers in building thriving, future-focused learning environments.
Her background spans classroom teaching, academic research, consultancy and facilitation. Her doctoral research explored how pedagogical leadership empowers educators to deliver quality practice in early childhood settings.
Amie is known for her relational, strengths-based approach. Believing deeply in the power of collaboration, reflective practice and wellbeing as foundations for effective learning communities. In recognition of her impact, she received the Australian Council for Educational Leaders New Voice Scholarship in 2023.
📘 Takeaways
Hope is essential for progress in education.
There is a difference between being hopeful and having hope.
Educators play a pivotal role in children's lives.
Children's mental health is a growing concern.
Play is crucial for children's development.
The educational context has shifted significantly.
We must focus on the whole child, not just academics.
Emotions play a key role in learning.
Executive function is critical for future success.
Collaboration is necessary for meaningful change.
📘 Chapters
01:04 The Importance of Hope in Education
03:49 Hope vs. Optimism: Understanding the Distinction
06:45 Vision for a Better Future in Education
09:31 The State of Children Today
12:23 The Role of Play in Child Development
15:07 Challenges in Modern Education
18:16 Recognizing the Whole Child in Education
21:04 The Importance of Connection and Belonging
23:09 The Complexity of Learning and Struggle
25:28 The Importance of Early Childhood Education
30:48 Emotional Regulation and Learning
37:55 Values in Education and Professional Agency
44:35 The Lifelong Impact of Early Childhood Education
🔗 Connect and Resources Mentioned
🔗 Stay Connected with Louka Parry
For the latest learning innovation follow Louka on LinkedIn
Share your thoughts by visiting www.thelearningfuture.com
Tune in to be inspired, challenged, and reminded why love truly is at the heart of learning.
[Transcript Auto-generated]
Louka Parry (00:13)
Hello everybody. And welcome back to the learning future podcast. I'm of course your host, Luke, and it's a delight to be here with a dear friend and colleague of mine, Dr. Amy Fabry. she's actually on the learning future team. but beyond that, she's a wonderful human being.
And she's, as you hear, a devoted early childhood educator with almost two decades of diverse experience, merging research and hands-on practice to uplift leaders, especially in pedagogical transformation. She absolutely has a strength-based approach. And her PhD spotlighted the pivotal role early childhood leaders have in fostering cultures of collaboration and connection. Here, she...
crafts a lot of our professional programs. She's the director of professional learning and early years. And she's also in her spare time, a passionate mother of two, a lifelong learner. She loves to read, loves nature and cherishing daily magical moments. Hello, Amy, great to be with you.
Amie Fabry (01:12)
Hello Luca, thank you for having me. It's so great to chat.
Louka Parry (01:14)
It's actually really nice just to have this time to kind of zoom out a little bit and look at the work that you're doing in Being a bit out of the weeds, so to speak. I'm going to ask you the first question I always ask, which is what is something that you are learning right now through your work and your life?
Amie Fabry (01:35)
It's such a great question because about 10 things come to mind when you ask me what I'm learning because I'm always learning a lot right but I think something that's really resonating at the moment for me is the importance of having hope and I listened to a podcast a few weeks ago and a psychologist Dr. Emily Musgrove was talking about hope and it just really connected
with me, particularly I think you know, where we're at as a world, as a species right now, it's very easy, I think, to lose hope. And so what's kind of resonating for me and particularly through a lens of education as a parent, you know, and in the work that I do supporting leaders is we actually need hope. And we probably need hope now more than ever because, you know,
Things do look a little bleak. Let's be honest, we're not gonna sugarcoat that. But I think what I'm learning is that hope is different to optimism. And we actually need hope because that gives us the possibility to move forward. And without hope, we become hopeless, know, fall into despair and actually no progress can happen. So I think despite the challenges that we're facing right now, right across the board, we all need to find...
and hoping each other to pull together and to move forward.
Louka Parry (02:54)
I love that. I love this. I love the link perhaps between hope and agency, is this idea that if I believe things can be better and I can contribute to them. You know, there's a really small distinction, Amy, I want you to reflect on, which is the difference between having hope and being hopeful. And I wonder if to you there is a there is a difference.
Amie Fabry (03:18)
Yeah and I think you know thinking more about hope more deeply like you know Dr Emily describes to have hope you actually need to have a goal and you need to be able to find a pathway towards that goal but it's very much about the agency and that you actually have to have a belief that you can follow that path to reach a goal and so you know I think for me hope is different of course to optimism where you can be optimistic that everything's just going to turn out great.
⁓ But that doesn't require you to do anything. Like you can sit back and you know, in this podcast episode, Emily was actually describing hope as a verb. So it's an actual, it's got its sleeves rolled up. It's getting me in there and doing something. Whereas optimism can just sit really comfortably, too comfortably back and just assume everything's going to turn out. Whereas hope says it might turn out that way, but that requires me to do something. And so there is definitely a piece of agency here.
Louka Parry (03:55)
Yes. ⁓
Mmm.
Amie Fabry (04:14)
when we think about hope and I think you know sometimes with language we do you know use different words to mean the same thing but I think that that's kind of something I've been really thinking about is that difference between being hopeful and being optimistic. I've actually always considered myself to be an optimistic person and so the hope piece is powerful for me personally but also
I think as I think about the different aspects of my life and you know to bring that message of hope to other people because the distinguishing factor is that we need to do something. We need to actually see our agency and tap into that. That's how we move forward.
Louka Parry (04:52)
Tell us then Amy, what is the kind of hopeful vision you're working towards and what's the kind of main effort you're putting into that better world?
Amie Fabry (05:03)
It's kind of twofold. I think, you know, we work in education because we want to make a difference and...
I think most educators would say the same thing. You know, whether you're a new educator or you've been in the field for a really long time, you know, we all want to make a difference to the lives of children. And so when I think about what I am hopeful for is that we actually do get to a point where things are better for our kids. And that's not just in schools, although that's predominantly where
my work focuses or in early learning, but it's also, know, being a child and being a human being is so much more encompassing than that. So I think, you know, I have kind of this vision that in the future, we as adults in society will take better care of our children and we'll actually value their voices and their experiences. And, you know, I do think
Amie Fabry (05:57)
that is a responsibility that we all have collectively. It's not just on our educators, it's not just on parents. It's actually as a society we need to come together. So there's kind of that piece which is really high level. But then I think, you the work that I do to kind of help move towards that vision is to actually support the educators and the role that they play in the lives of children and alongside other educators. And so for me that looks like
Louka Parry (06:03)
Yes.
Amie Fabry (06:24)
actually empowering our early childhood educators in particular. You know that's kind of my wheelhouse where my experience is and you know they have just such a pivotal role in the lives of children. They spend so much time with our most impressionable children who are learning so much. They're in that really peak development stage you know in terms of brain development but it's more than just the cognitive which I think we can quite easily only
focus on what are children learning, know, kind of the academic side, but in actual fact, in the early years, which goes right up to the age of eight, I add, children are actually engaged in a whole series of interactions and experiences with the people around them, with the objects around them. And that's not just shaping their wiring for learning concepts, but it's actually shaping who they are as people.
Amie Fabry (07:19)
and how they come to see themselves. And I think that's really, really profound. But we don't talk about that as often as we talk about, know, are we teaching them the right strategies for phonics and reading? You know, it becomes very, a very narrow conversation. And so then from the outside, we might look for data and evidence that children are learning, but we often overlook the fact that how are the children, you know, how are they actually experiencing the world and ⁓
Louka Parry (07:20)
Mm.
Yes.
Yes. Yes.
Amie Fabry (07:48)
their learning and their own capabilities and their own agency. So there's a lot more to consider. And so the work that I do is to walk alongside our educators to help them to really tap into the expertise that they have. And again, you know, our early childhood teachers are so integral to the lives of our children. But sadly, they're often overlooked in the broader education conversations, you know, they're not always
respected and valued for the actual expertise that they have and it is specialist knowledge. So part of the work I do is helping out educators to remember that, you know, and but also to to help them to step into their own agency as leaders, because we need early childhood leaders, strong early childhood leaders, not just in the early childhood sector, but actually in our communities, because these people do have
Amie Fabry (08:43)
amazing expertise, they walk alongside children every day. And I see the potential for early childhood leaders is that they could actually help us transform education more broadly. They can help us tap into the humanness that is in all of us. You know, they help connect families and education. And so they play a really pivotal role in our societies. And so that work is about how do we
Louka Parry (08:55)
Yes.
Amie Fabry (09:08)
Tap into that expertise, but also support these people to grow in their own confidence and capabilities as leaders.
Louka Parry (09:15)
Amy, I've got a few questions for you based off that answer. The first is, and you've already actually, you've stated this phrase already, which is so powerful. And it's one of my, it's one of our favorites, let's be honest, we use it in some of our work. And it comes from the Messiah in Africa. it's, it's the greeting isn't how you going in Australia or how are you? It's how are the children? And it's just like, so when you think about what matters in a society,
Louka Parry (09:42)
⁓ And so I want you to like answer that question for us from your unique vantage point. So as an early years expert, as kind of pedagogy expert and a parent, someone working with schools across Australia, how are the children? What are you seeing? What are you noticing?
Amie Fabry (09:46)
Mmm.
Yeah such a great question. I don't think they're doing so well.
And I think, you know, on the surface, we might say they're fine and the majority of children are fine. But I think if we dig deeper, and I think we have to be prepared to ask these questions and to sit with it and to sit with whatever comes up. But I actually think our children are not doing so well. And we do have some evidence that that points to that, you know, in terms of mental health and well-being is one of them. We know we've got increasing rates of anxiety and depression.
that our children are experiencing even from the age of four. So we have to stop and say what is going on for them? And I think you know as very well intentioned adults we can easily think that it must be the children's fault or maybe it's the teacher's fault or maybe it's the parents fault but I actually think we all probably
in some shape or form are contributing to this and that's a really hard pill to swallow you know and it's honestly one that I am sitting with ⁓ and it feels big and it feels heavy but I don't think you know if we come back to this piece of hope even we can't find a way forward unless we're actually going to be open and honest about that ⁓ and so I think I don't think our children are doing so well.
Louka Parry (11:13)
Yes.
Amie Fabry (11:17)
in terms of their own mental health and well-being. I think there are and we know that there is far more expectation and pressure put on children than ever used to be. We know our children are not playing like they used to. You if you think about your childhood I know for me I was never home. You know I was never home. I was climbing trees and I was out in the street probably you know getting up to a bit of mischief but
Louka Parry (11:28)
Yes.
Christ out.
Amie Fabry (11:44)
you I was I wasn't home so if I was at school I was I did my day at school I'd come home and I was out playing and we know that there's a correlation between the decline in play and it's not just play for play's sake and to take a break but it's also where children can take risks.
Louka Parry (11:45)
Good mystery.
Amie Fabry (12:03)
⁓ You know be less supervised and controlled by adults, you know, and again well-intentioned adults, you know I'm a parent it is harder to let go then you think it's going to be but I think you know, this is all having an impact on our kids because They're not having that freedom anymore and we know play is is the most powerful stress relief we know that play is where children actually develop skills and dispositions like
Louka Parry (12:10)
Yeah.
Ha
Amie Fabry (12:31)
how to actually navigate a conflict with somebody, how to actually be a leader and try something out. know, play is a safe space for children because it's not high stakes. You no one's testing you in play. You can try things out and make mistakes and we all kind of get through that and that's where so much rich learning comes. You know, we can be creative in play. We can try new things. We can build some resilience because...
often in play it's actually more meaningful and more motivating for children so I actually might be prepared to sit with this really big challenge and come back to it again and again and build my resilience and build my perseverance even my attention span because this is actually something that's meaningful to me. So I think when we look at the reduction in play we are seeing children who are less developed in some of those skills and dispositions.
Amie Fabry (13:25)
And often, you know, when I'm talking to teachers, whether they are working in preschools or long daycare or even the early years of school, they're all saying the same thing. Our children are coming to us with lower levels of development than we used to see. And so I think we have to really take a step back as a society and say, what is going on here? You know, we can see that there's more pressure and expectation, certainly when you hit school age.
⁓ What we're asking children to do at a younger age is significant. know, there's a lot of pressure on them academically. And then when we zoom out and we think about childhood, there's less play in children's lives. Parents are really busy now working. You know, and we know that life has changed. So in most households, both parents are working, which adds more stress to the family, less time to often be with children, to play with children, just engage in conversations.
Amie Fabry (14:22)
We know there's more tech use happening, you know, and I'm not anti-tech, but I think we have to be cognizant of how we use it because we also know that children are spending more and more time on screens and where there are some benefits, there are also things that children are missing out on. And so they're not having as many conversations. So their oral language is lower. You know that...
Amie Fabry (14:46)
attention span is perhaps not developing to its fullest capacity for their age and stage if they are you know swiping and you know they've got games that are really short bursts of holding their attention and they're looking for things that are bright and overstimulating versus playing you know with blocks or lego or something where you might not have the overstimulation but you can engage for a longer period of time so there's a lot going on but i think you know
I think we, I don't think we have a clear answer, but I think we can see if we're willing to be open to it. I think we can see from a whole range of data that our children are struggling. They're struggling to develop holistically in the sense that I think would be ideal for thriving. I think many children are on autopilot, they are stressed, and I think they're not always heard and recognized.
Louka Parry (15:42)
It's a lot in there, Amy. I think about some of the evidence I've seen around the lifelong impact of early childhood. James Heckman and the Heckman equation, showing that the best return on investment comes from investing in quality early years programs and environments. And I think your reflection on how the context has shifted is really interesting. This idea that perhaps two generations ago, if not one, there was this idea that there would be
Louka Parry (16:07)
You didn't need two parents working. Whereas now it's almost needs to be the case just to afford a house. know, there's even the idea of screens, you know, since 2007 when the iPhone, you know, was launched. And you think about where we are now, 2025 in the middle of the AI revolution and what implications that also throws up. I'm really interested in correlation and I'm even more interested in causation. And how do we know what is causing? And it's always a multifactorial.
Louka Parry (16:35)
in this in the kind of space of human development. But you know, as we heard from Jonathan Hyatt, in the anxious generation work that we often share through our work is kind of a contextual picture. There is something about over protecting young people in the real world and grossly under protecting them online. That I think leads to particular types of dispositions being underdeveloped in some ways. You know, risk taking behavior, free play, explore, you know,
Louka Parry (17:02)
collaborative problem solving, all those things that are social and the emotional dimensions that I'm so interested in, you know, myself, like, because we know that they endure decades into the future. You know, if you do a high quality social emotional learning program with infants and toddlers, you can tell the difference when they're 25. And so I just, it kind of, I really think there's something here to play a pay close attention to. And so with your work and what you're doing, what you're seeing, what do you think?
Like matters the most knowing that we're in this kind of conversation at the moment, you talked about the mental health aspect, but our academic achievement has also been declining over 20 years. Right. So our PISA results, for example, at the global level for the OCD, they've been on the downslides also. It seems to be pretty, it's been an interesting moment in education. What do you, what do you think matters more today than ever before?
Amie Fabry (17:41)
Yep.
That's a great question. think we really need to, know, politicians are really good at talking about going back to basics, right? And this is gonna fix things. I actually think the back to basics is we need to go back to recognizing that children are not just brains and they're not just about academics, but they're actually thinking, feeling human beings. And I think that...
brings a powerful lens to remember that it's a whole child that we're educating and nurturing. It is not just the academic achievement. And I think when we stop and remind ourselves of that, we make different decisions about what matters. And being a teacher is really tough, right? Like you've been a teacher, I've been a teacher. It's a complex job. And I think sometimes we try really hard to simplify
Louka Parry (18:47)
very complex.
Amie Fabry (18:52)
the complexity, you know, there's this one program that's going to solve all your problems. And, you know, this one size fits all kind of narrative that we're hearing more and more. It just doesn't work. And I think it's, I actually think it's a disservice to teachers to think, to try and encourage people to think that way, because you're trying to reduce very complex role into a very narrow
Louka Parry (19:01)
Yeah, the silver bullet. Yeah.
Amie Fabry (19:20)
⁓ box and it just doesn't fit. I think instead the more we recognize that children are thinking feeling human beings we can recognize you know an early child does this so well we're not just teaching the academic we're actually really spending intentional time focusing on children hearing what they have to say about the world their own ideas you know and rather than come in with all the answers we actually are
are asking the questions to get them to think. It's not about actually the end answer. It's about the thinking process and the skills and dispositions we develop in that process. You know, I've got two children and you know, they're through the early years now, but it's so remarkable to me constantly, you know, from being an educator to shifting to parent mode, when your own children come home and struggle with learning.
Amie Fabry (20:14)
real learning, which is actually hard work. You know, and I think for many of our kids, they don't understand that the learning process is challenging. So they might think, if I don't get the answer easily, or it doesn't come easily, then I'm actually not very smart. And so that I think is really concerning. It comes back to this self identity piece. But we know, as educated adults that actually learning is a
hard process, feels frustrating, you know, until you get to the point where you've kind of really understood or mastered something. And so I think we we've become so quick to get to the answers and so quick to focus on the test results that we've lost sight of the learning process, which actually comes from connecting, connecting with the children in our, in our care or in our classrooms, we've lost sight of
connecting as human beings over things that matter to us collectively. And I think there's a disconnect in the learning process too, where children are not necessarily seeing the relevance to why are we learning all of this stuff? How is this actually gonna help me? And I think the piece around that intrinsic motivation and agency has just become more and more profound. we see it in models like the 4D education model,
Amie Fabry (21:36)
Charles Fadal you know that actually we need to pay attention to more than just the knowledge we want children to learn and develop and understand but actually we also need to recognize what they bring to the learning process and that is their own their own funds of knowledge which we talk about a lot in early childhood not so much in education but you know children have their own experiences their own theories of the world their own ideas their own motivations when we tap into those
Louka Parry (22:01)
Yes.
Amie Fabry (22:05)
we recognize that they are actually a really critical part of the learning process. It's not just about teachers imparting knowledge, it's actually more about the learners. How do we meet them where they're at? How do we recognize what they bring? know, hell, why can't we be open to learning from them? Like in all honesty, you know, as a parent, I learn every day from my children. ⁓ And I just think we could have much richer learning that recognized children first and foremost as being capable.
Louka Parry (22:15)
Mmm. Yeah.
Amie Fabry (22:33)
But also when we do that and we listen to children, we're responsive to them, we're also giving, helping them to really genuinely feel a sense of belonging, which we know from research actually is a really good indicator of how children are going to learn, continue to learn, stay in school, know, increases engagement and participation and attendance, you know, all of those things. But again,
Louka Parry (22:46)
Yeah. Massive. Yeah.
Amie Fabry (22:58)
Sometimes things like even belonging and wellbeing, it always sits below the academic. And instead, maybe it's time we put that first and actually focused on how we connect with children. How do we genuinely bring a sense of belonging? How do we listen to their ideas and give them a voice? And then more learning will actually happen.
Louka Parry (23:16)
There's a lot I want to pick up there, Amy, as usual. mean, the one piece like that learning process is a really interesting one to think about. But to come back to something you said earlier, I think the thing around struggle is a really interesting one. Because for me, I obviously think, and we in our work also, we think about what are the different dimensions that need to be cultivated and developed.
Louka Parry (23:43)
You know, and so that is a, it's a multi-dimensional model, which means it's a complex model instead of a simplistic model. And your piece on back to basics, honestly, the, my reflection is back to basics. Sometimes just means back to mediocrity. It's like, let's take the average and this interesting, I would say it's quite an interesting moment for us in education. People listening would know this too, that, know, this kind of what works conversation on the one side, it's kind of a bit like a hammer and it's just trying to.
Louka Parry (24:11)
hit down every nail regardless of context, but context matters so much versus like what matters and who cares what's possible and then how do we get there? You know, there's like a really different kind of, there's, almost like the technical versus the adaptive conversations going on. And I don't want to create false dichotomies because that's part of the issue. It's like, how do we include and transcend? Right. So yes, like high impact pedagogy in key moments to support a relational sense of belonging, to be able to transfer the knowledge that we've learned.
Amie Fabry (24:17)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Louka Parry (24:40)
Cause your thing around learning is so good. And I reckon, I think we need to expand what we mean by learning. You know, I think sometimes it's just knowledge acquisition. I fall into this trap, you know, I'm just going to go learn another language. Great. I learned another one. What's the point of doing that, Amy, if it's inert, it's the transfer of that knowledge. And I think young people today, even if we, you know, they know a lot of stuff, what can they do with that? And then the deeper level that I always reflect on, as you know, is who are they becoming?
Amie Fabry (24:46)
Hmm.
Absolutely.
You
Yeah.
Mmm.
Louka Parry (25:09)
as they do things with what they know. You know, and that that piece is the most critical piece for us. And so, and I know that the earliest does this really well as a middle school trained teacher that's taught across the spectrum, right? I really, and then I, you know, was responsible for a kindergarten for a period of time as a school principal. And I was, I just started learning. I mean, I didn't even know about James Heckman until I was, you know, well into my career. So tell us, make the case Amy for teachers that are
Amie Fabry (25:10)
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yep.
Louka Parry (25:38)
often introduce ourselves as I'm a drama teacher, I'm a science teacher, I'm a math teacher, you know, and we're really strongly held to our content because we're passionate about it that's fantastic. But make the case as well for why the early years is a really powerful frame for how all of education might be in the future if we step into the future space. How would you make that argument to us?
Amie Fabry (25:46)
Great question. The first thing I want to say about that is it's sometimes ironic to me that, you know, the progressives in education are talking about really important fundamental things like student agency, for example, or creativity, which I...
completely believe have a place in education and actually should be the driver of education. The irony for me though, and I have said this to you before is, is that this is kind of like the 101 early childhood, know, like this is actually what we do day in day out and have believed in for such a long time. So the irony for me is whilst I am so heartened by the conversations that we are seeing emerge more and more in education about
Amie Fabry (26:46)
how we put children first and how we actually give them a voice in that process. I can't help but wonder how we've overlooked the early years that's been doing this for such a long time. And so I think, you know, I think making the case is partly we know that the current system's not really working for our children, not for this day and age. And so what can we do better? We've talked about, you know, focusing more on children. We do that in the early years. The early years,
Early years educators, they're like magicians, know, they're like these rainbow unicorns because when we think about the complexity of being human, it's so involved, you know, it's not as simple as just teaching content. It's actually recognising that even as human beings, we are all different, but we are also going to be different on different days. So actually being able to walk alongside somebody and I use that term intentionally.
because in early childhood, we're not teaching children, we are nurturing their growth. We're meeting them where they are at. We are not trying to fill them with content, but we're actually recognizing that you are a really capable, valuable member of this service or this preschool or this school community. And we can all learn from you and we can all support you. It's a really different way of framing
Louka Parry (27:49)
interesting.
Mm-hmm.
Amie Fabry (28:10)
the learning process and the contributions that we all make. So I think in the early years we do that really well. We actually sit with the complexity. As educators we recognise that every child is different and we honour and respect that difference. We work with families because we know families are children's first teachers and they you know they don't come to us in a vacuum they are actually part of a community and a family that sits outside of our surface or our school.
Louka Parry (28:23)
Mmm. Yeah.
Amie Fabry (28:39)
We recognize that learning is social. We recognize that, you know, the emerging sense of identity that is constantly being formed through our interactions and engagements with children is so crucial to who they are becoming. And we are really careful with our words. We are really intentional about the way we provide opportunities to nurture curiosity.
the questions that children have, know, their playfulness, their zest for life. You know, we actually recognize where children, who children are, where they're coming from. And we, we build on that. We provide environments that nurture and support them to grow through their strengths as opposed to you need to now do X, Y, Z because I told you to, ⁓ you know, and I'm, I'm being a bit facetious here, but I do just think there is so much.
Louka Parry (29:09)
Mmm... Mm-hmm.
I didn't picked it up. ⁓
Amie Fabry (29:34)
There is just so much that we can learn from the early years because it's just a beautiful way of educating. you know, I really love the quote by Dewey that says, education is not preparation for life, it is life itself. And I think that really summarizes early childhood for me. We recognize that learning is in the here and now. It is going to have an impact on who we become, but let's actually...
Louka Parry (29:47)
Yes.
Amie Fabry (30:00)
live and feel the process as opposed to just trying ticks and boxes you know for the future and I think that's where we get real connection you know children actually are so joyful in in early childhood and you know I'm not I want to be mindful I'm not sugarcoating this and saying that you know this is some kind of utopia you know children feel things and if you think about a two-year-old who is frustrated because they haven't yet developed
the social emotional skills or self-regulation to manage those emotions, but they have educators alongside them to co-regulate. They have educators alongside them to say, it's okay to feel the way you feel right now. This is really important. This is about seeing human beings because they are human beings and being alongside them, however they are, to accept them, to value them, and then just to keep supporting and guiding them step by step.
Louka Parry (30:57)
Wow, there's one thing that I'm really thinking about, Amy, just listening to you talk. It's this idea that...
Well, it's actually, it's a bit nerdy. It's also a study that I was shared with me recently, the Dunedin study, which is a longitudinal study that looked at, I think it was over 40 years. What, know, what competencies, skills, knowledge predict future success in life? And what the kind of key takeaway, and if I'm not mistaken in my read of this,
It's not that social economic status makes the biggest difference. It's that executive function is the greatest predictor of life success. so my curiosity here is when you think about the environments that you're talking about and the ones that you help leaders to create in schools and earlier settings, that really is the focus on executive function. And I'm not so certain that you can just...
RAM executive function down someone's, I think it's a competency, complex competency that develops over time. And then on the flip side, you can look at some of the technologies that our youngest human beings are being exposed to right now and the detrimental impact that has on executive function. And I can think of some of the peer reviewed evidence that I've seen, you that looks at heavy use of particular tools.
Louka Parry (32:16)
diminishing the amount of gray matter in the prefrontal cortex, which is exactly where the executive function formulates, right? So yeah, I'm really curious about that connection. Because if we can set up young people to start to, to your point, self-regulate after they have been able to co-regulate with an educator and a parent. And this is why I'm so obsessed with the emotion sciences, right? If we, cause you do, you know, the last thing I'll
Louka Parry (32:43)
say before you respond is I do believe that we are emotional beings that think not thinking beings that feel and that if I've learned anything in my time it's that you know the amygdala and the emotion centers of the brain are the gateways to cognition and so just you know I think why this technical view of let me just instruct you is problematic because the question is like what how do know learning has taken place is the better question
Amie Fabry (32:51)
Mm.
Absolutely.
Louka Parry (33:11)
And as a teacher, know, again, I'm not sure carrying this. Lots of times I had a great, I had a great lesson. taught an amazing lesson and I'm not sure anyone learned anything, but I felt good. And so there's this kind of this real shift on seeing the learning through the eyes of the learner. And especially that piece around the emotional aspect, which in the social aspect, which in my view is like as important as any of the cognitive aspects, because they're all linked together neurologically. Your thoughts.
Amie Fabry (33:20)
Yeah, gosh, there's so much to say. A couple of things that come to mind. Firstly, you know, yes, we can't actually access the cognitive parts of our brain when our emotions are heightened. You know, if you're in flight or fight response, then the thinking that's gone out the window, you know, and I think, I think about this all the time because I see it in my own children when they come home from a really big day at school and sometimes they do have meltdowns because it's a lot to deal with. And I can't reason with them in those moments because their emotions take over. you actually, absolutely. And if you have worked with younger children who don't yet have those inbuilt coping strategies and I'm calling them coping strategies because...
Louka Parry (34:15)
No reasoning centres available.
Amie Fabry (34:28)
At what point are they self-regulating and at what point are they coping? I think is actually a really live question that we again need to dive into. But I think, you know, we do actually have a lot of, again, very well-meaning teachers whose job is to help children reach these academic milestones. But when that is the focus, we do the teaching and what I think and fear is happening is that
Louka Parry (34:36)
Interesting.
Amie Fabry (34:57)
We then make a judgment about the child based on, I've done my teaching and if they haven't learned something, then maybe there's an issue for them in terms of learning. But what's not usually coming up in those conversations is how is that child feeling? If you are feeling unsafe, and you know, again, this is a big thing for us to sit with, to actually think that a child in our class might feel unsafe. It doesn't mean they feel physically unsafe.
but emotionally they might feel unsafe. They might not actually feel that I can ask the question if I don't know something. ⁓ They might not know that, you know, we talk about psychological safety in the workplace, but actually we also need that for our children in our classrooms, that if you don't know something, you can say, hey, I don't know that and I'm not going to be judged or made to feel like I'm dumb, you know, or I can...
Louka Parry (35:34)
Hmm.
Amie Fabry (35:52)
I'm not feeling like I have to perform against everybody else. And you know, we do have this performative culture in our schools. And again, this is not pointing the blame at our teachers. This is a system problem, which has a flow onto our school leaders, which has a flow onto our teachers, which has a flow onto our children. But I do think we have to all start taking some responsibility to really look at what is going on for our children. And this never became so apparent for me as when I became a parent.
Amie Fabry (36:20)
You know, and I know that I wasn't a perfect teacher and I made mistakes, we all do, because we're human. But as a parent, when you can see that your child is too scared to go and ask the teacher a question, you have to wonder what is happening for the children. You know, and again, we can have the best intentions in the world as the adults in the room who have all the power. Let me just say, we say, we set the rules, we set the tone of the classroom.
Louka Parry (36:35)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Amie Fabry (36:47)
But is that working for our children? I think we actually have to grapple with that a little bit. And what comes to mind for me is in some of this piece of hope and how do we move forward is I think we need to start talking more about our values. know, what kind of people do we actually want these children to grow into? What kind of world are we trying to create? You know, and Anne Pello talks a lot about these values. She's an early childhood. ⁓
Amie Fabry (37:15)
guru, but we, actually need to sit with some of the values pieces because you know, a lot of teachers that you talk to right across the board, I think there's this disconnect for many educators who want to come and make a difference. But I think we feel this disconnect because we're doing things that work for a system in terms of ticking boxes, focusing on academic achievement. But the values piece, I think sometimes when we sit with that, that's where we feel
out of alignment to doing the great work that we know we feel called to do. And so I think, you know, it's very easy for us as the adults to go, well, we've done all the right things. It must be the children's fault or it must be the adults fault. You know, we can blame tech, can blame parenting, we can blame a whole range of other things. But at the end of the day, it's not going to change unless we are willing to sit with the bigger questions of why
Amie Fabry (38:13)
Is this child struggling to learn here? What might be going on for them? And so we actually have to be really brave actually to ask those meaningful questions to the people who can help answer them. And we have to be willing to sit with whatever comes up. And I think that's a real challenge for all of us.
Louka Parry (38:15)
Yes. It's that wonderful cartoon, Amy, that says like, who wants change and everyone's hand is up. And then the person on the podium says, who wants to change if one's hands go down? And then it says, who wants to lead the change? And there's no one left in the auditorium at all. And it's just, I mean, it's playful, but of course there's something really so powerful about that. I don't think you can change anything in the world unless you can change yourself. really didn't. It's certainly not in terms of anything with the moral imperative.
Amie Fabry (38:44)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Louka Parry (39:02)
And this is one quote that I'm reflecting on quite a lot of the moment by Carl Jung, which is, you the world will ask you who you are. And if you don't know, the world will tell you. think that's the same for our workers, educators, the system, the community, the parent, they'll ask you who you are, what you stand for. If you don't know, you'll be told. And so there's something so powerful about self concept, self efficacy, of course, you know, those that make a difference are those who believe they can.
Amie Fabry (39:08)
Hmm.
I love them.
Louka Parry (39:29)
So just to kind of close a sound, penultimate question. What do we do? What are some steps that I can take if I'm listening to this and I'm an educator? What have you discovered through your work, your research? What can I start to do that might be able to support this kind of vision?
Amie Fabry (39:42)
Mmm. Well, I mean, my research was very focused on the early years of school. So there's a few things I could say, you know, that are more general, right across the board. I think we all as educators and leaders have to stop and ask ourselves why we're here. And I think until we actually do that, you know, we're not living into the values that we have. We're not actually fulfilling our own purpose for being educators and I genuinely think this is why so many educators are leaving the profession. Yes it's workload and burnout but I think it's also a lack of professional agency and so I think we need to actually sit with our values and reconnect with who you are as an educator or a leader and what is the kind of difference you actually want to make for the lives in the lives of children and young people.
Louka Parry (40:04)
Mmm.
Interesting.
Amie Fabry (40:31)
And I think when we come back to a lens of values, then we can start to make more intentional decisions. And I think, like you said, it starts with all of us, but when we recognize our own professional agency, even if someone's not giving it to you, I think you actually have to stop and go, what can I do? There are always going to be things that get in the way, but where are the opportunities where I can have more flexibility around the way I'm showing up?
Louka Parry (40:49)
Yes.
Amie Fabry (40:59)
the expectations that I'm setting for children, how I'm meeting children where they're at, am I really listening to them and connecting with them? know, those relational aspects need to come front and center. And I think for our school leaders, when they can tap into that, they can then create conversations for educators. And I think it's quite sad sometimes for me when I talk to teachers, particularly in the early years, and they need this sense of permission.
to actually be able to focus on the whole child or to spend time connecting with children, you know? And again, you have to go, how did we get to this point that the curriculum has become far more important than the actual children? And so I think a really powerful question that every educator and leader can ask themselves is, am I teaching children or am I teaching curriculum? You know, it says a lot about where we're at.
Louka Parry (41:26)
Hmm. That's right, question.
Amie Fabry (41:51)
but it's also meaningful to reflect on in terms of our values, what matters, the outcomes or the actual children that we're walking alongside. And I think once we start to have those deep connections and conversations with ourselves, we open them up to our colleagues. And I think then collectively we can start to shift some of the ways that we might approach teaching and learning and come from a new lens. But I also think this is really collaborative work. I think this is really often big change.
Amie Fabry (42:20)
really hard to do on your own. Yes, it starts with all of us taking that responsibility, but ultimately, I think we get change for the better when we actually come together and we have these really meaningful conversations, we build shared understandings and a shared commitment to what we're going to do going forward. And I think, you know, if I reflect on my research, the most effective leaders were doing this. So, you know, through a lens of early years and looking at the early years of school,
Amie Fabry (42:47)
Leaders who were teachers, might I add, they weren't necessarily principals and deputy principals, but teachers who were willing to sit with what matters and to connect with their colleagues and to ask the really meaty hard questions. But why are we here and what difference do we want to make? You know, I think when we need to connect with each other as a profession, we actually need to hear and listen and respect and value and respond to the people around us, just like we should be doing with children.
Amie Fabry (43:17)
Because at the end of the day, we're all human beings. We're all in this together. And I think the more we come together, we grow together, we support each other, we nurture each other. But I think that is the way forward.
Louka Parry (43:30)
I feel nurtured just in this conversation. Amie, I think that's just the wonderful like framing of, of you as an, as a earliest practitioner, but now as as a kind of leadership facilitator as well. so powerful. And I, that question, you know, a lot of those questions, ⁓ that you pose, I've got a final question for you, which is what's your take home message in one or two sentences. So as you think about that, the quote that's really on my mind.
is never doubt that a small group of committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has, it's Margaret Mead. And it's just such a powerful way to think about it. And I wonder about the future of our world and the future of our learning ecosystems, our schools, our centers, and this for them to become learning hubs, which is actually the third scenario of four that the OECD puts out. ⁓
Amie Fabry (44:21)
Yep.
Louka Parry (44:23)
that Tracy, who is going to be on this podcast next week, you know, that's her work. So this idea of being a learning hub means that there is this deep interconnectedness between all the different aspects that contribute to human growth and development, including less finger pointing and more coming together in a kind of ecological way to Bronfenbrenner way around this, you know, this young human who is individuating in order to do something interesting with their life in the world, we hope.
Louka Parry (44:51)
So what is your take home message for the listeners?
Amie Fabry (44:54)
My take home message is the early childhood lasts a lifetime. And so we really need to pay more attention to the early years, not just for political reasons or even economic reasons, although they're very valid. We actually need to come together and recognise just how profound that period of development is. I also think we need to...
We need to work together and build partnerships. This isn't going to be something that any one person can do better and solve on their own. You know that beautiful saying, it takes a village to raise a child. I don't think we raise children in villages anymore. We're doing it on our own. ⁓ And so we need to come together. If you're a family, if you've got a family and you're a parent, you know, talk to people around you. We need to build those really strong partnerships between
early learning, schools, preschools, families, community members. You know, this isn't something that anyone can just do on their own. We actually need to come together, really think about what's happening in those early years. And then if you're a school leader, you should know what happens in the early years. You know, you don't have to be an expert, but go and ask the people who have that expertise, go and find out what's happening in the early years and how those educators are actually supporting and nurturing the whole child because it is so profound and so overlooked.
But there is so much we can also learn and think about how might we take some of those key principles and ideas around pedagogy and practice and actually expand them up into our primary schools and secondary schools. You know, they are actually at the heart of what it means to be a human being, to connect to ourselves, to the people around us and to meaningful learning. And I think that's a really powerful way to move forward.
Louka Parry (46:41)
Amie, thank you for your passion, for your work and for being with us on the Learning Future podcast today.
Amie Fabry (46:47)
That's my pleasure Louka, always great to chat.
Louka Parry (46:49)
Onwards.
