The Role of Young People in Shaping Education S10E1 (131)
🔥 What if schools were designed for human flourishing, not just academic achievement?
🔥 If schools were invented today, what would they look like — and what would we leave behind?
🎙️ Episode Summary
In this episode of the Learning Future podcast, Louka Parry speaks with Michelle Culver, founder of the Rhythm Project, about the intersection of education, AI, and human connection. They discuss the importance of learning from young people, the role of relationships in education, and how AI can both enhance and challenge human connections. Michelle shares insights on creating conditions for aliveness in learning environments and emphasizes the need for collective imagination in shaping the future of education.
👤 About Michelle Culver
Michelle Culver is the Founder of The Rithm Project, which activates young people to rebuild and evolve human connection in the age of AI. She has led at the forefront of human flourishing for over two decades, working at the intersection of equity and innovation. Beginning her career as a 5th-grade teacher in Compton, she played a pivotal role in building Teach For America's first national program, increasing educator efficacy and diversity while the teaching corps grew 10-fold.
As EVP of Regional Operations, she oversaw 14 executive directors, 300 staff members and a $68 million budget, impacting over 200,000 students. Her work with the fastest improving school districts in the nation fueled her belief in a fundamental redesign of American public education, leading her to create the Reinvention Lab, Teach For America’s Research & Development engine.
Michelle serves on the boards of RISE Colorado & DaVinci Schools and advises Playlab AI, aiEDU, and the Circle India. Married to a Salesforce futurist, they imagine futures where their two daughters—and all young people—don’t just thrive, but actively shape the world around them. She is a proud Pahara Fellow with the Aspen Institute.
📘 Takeaways
Young people are actively using AI in relational ways.
Adults often miss the conversations young people are having about technology.
We need to rethink who is an expert and who is a learner.
AI can be a tool for enhancing human connection, not replacing it.
Creating joy and play in learning can foster deeper engagement.
The future of education should prioritize curiosity and agency.
We must address the discomfort in human relationships as part of learning.
Collective imagination is essential for shaping the future.
AI can accelerate learning but should not replace critical thinking.
Building resilience in students is crucial for their success.
📘 Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Michelle Culver and the Rhythm Project
01:30 Learning from Young People: Insights on AI
05:12 The Role of Relationships in Education
10:59 AI as a Companion: Benefits and Risks
16:21 Redefining Learning in the Age of AI
19:59 The Role of Discomfort in Learning
24:40 Cultivating Aliveness in Education
28:02 Imagining the Future Together
32:40 Methods for Engaging Learning
36:43 A Call to Action for Educators
🔗 Connect and Resources Mentioned
🔗 Stay Connected with Louka Parry
For the latest learning innovation follow Louka on LinkedIn
Share your thoughts by visiting www.thelearningfuture.com
Tune in to be inspired, challenged, and reminded why love truly is at the heart of learning.
[Transcript Auto-generated]
Louka Parry (00:09)
Hello friends and welcome back to the Learning Future podcast. Today it's my absolute delight to have tracked down this wonderful human being that I've been hearing a lot about. For many years, her name is Michelle Culver and she's the founder of the Rhythm Project, which activates young people to rebuild and evolve human connection in the age of AI. If there was anything important right now, Michelle, it's got to be something like this.
Michelle has really led at the forefront of human flourishing for over two decades, working at the intersection of equity and innovation. She began her career as a fifth grade teacher in Compton, and she played a pivotal role in building Teach for America's first national program in the early days before now it was this kind of global movement. She became the executive vice president of regional operations and she over store, oversaw a huge team, 14 eds, 300 staff members.
which were impacting over 200,000 students. Michelle serves on a range of different boards. She is married to a sales force futurist ⁓ where they imagine futures where their two daughters and all young people don't just thrive but actively shape the world around them. She's also a proud Pahara fellow with the Aspen Institute. And ⁓ you also created the reinvention lab, which is Teach for America's research and development engine, which is still going and we spoke to Sunana not long ago on this podcast, Michelle. So yes, well, it's the work continues. Thank you for joining us on the learning future podcast.
Michelle Culver (01:28)
She's the best thrilled to be here. Thanks for having me.
Louka Parry (01:36)
I just was enjoying our pre-chat a lot, know, kind of sharing stories about possibilities and, and kind of travel, but take us into the world of learning, which is somewhere where you clearly thrive. What is something that you're actively learning at the moment that's revealing itself to you?
Michelle Culver (01:51)
Well, I keep learning again and again from young people. And in particular, I'll tell you something that really struck me. So we recently interviewed 27 young people about how they are using AI in relational ways. at the end of this, and because young people are not a monolith, they all had different answers with great nuance and sophistication. But at the end, we asked the question, what do you think adults are missing?
Louka Parry (02:06)
Right.
Michelle Culver (02:17)
about this conversation. And they said almost some version of the same thing over and over and over again. And what they said was some version of, are actively using this technology, and we are not talking to you all about it. Because we can feel that adults are afraid. We can feel your fear. We can sense the shame and judgments coming. And so,
Michelle Culver (02:44)
If you want to know the truth, the truth is we are experimenting it on and finding our way on our own, and we are not in conversation with you all about it. And that, you can imagine, is a really important learning for me that is continuing to shape and reshape our strategy and our relationships.
Louka Parry (03:00)
Do you think, let's take us into that a little bit more. One of the things that we notice in our work is that we have an internalized view of what education needs to be or of how learning happens. And of course, that's so guided by our own education, the generation in which we grew up. So if that's what we're missing today, what's the implication for us as educators?
Michelle Culver (03:11)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Hmm. Well, I'll actually channel one of the young people who took it a step further to say, by the way, not only can we feel your judgment and fear, but we actually have something to offer to this conversation. But don't forget, we are digital natives. This is more intuitive to us. And so we actually have something to offer you. And so I think in the spirit of your question,
There's this really interesting exploration of the mindsets that we bring to who is expert and who is learner. And if we were really to just, I think, shake that off and approach this from a we are all learners and we all have something to contribute to this important conversation about how AI is showing up and reshaping our lives, then I think we would cut to much more.
nuanced answers that really draw from the assets and wealth of perspective that so many generations are bringing to the table at this moment.
Louka Parry (04:21)
It's like, I mean, obviously, but for me, something like co agency just becomes so implicated today. It's like for me and the role of a instructor or a chalky or a teacher to somehow kind of be calcified as I am the Noah. Primarily, I think just think we have so beyond that world as our young people tell us, you know, like the order rise of the auto didact, you know, if you're a good self learner, as compelling as I
Michelle Culver (04:26)
huh. Yes.
Mm-hmm.
That's right. That's right.
Louka Parry (04:48)
think I might have been in a classroom, you you're going to be able to learn faster if you're driving your own learnings. That's just a fascinating tipping point, I think. I know that you're doing some really interesting work at the Rhythm Project. Tell us about the big idea that you're really exploring and creating with that work.
Michelle Culver (04:55)
That's right.
Thanks for asking. So at the Rhythm Project, we're asking ourselves really about what is that young people are going to need in order to both rebuild and evolve human relationships in this moment of AI and AI disruption. And so that inquiry, think, is leading us to ourselves have to be fast, regular learners since the context keeps changing and
We are all emerging with, again, these sort of sophisticated and distinct dancers that are all pieces of this important moment and puzzle.
Louka Parry (05:37)
Tell us more about the relation relational bit, because we've had a few interesting conversations on here with Isabel Howe, for example, from Stanford. He's brilliant. You know, and we just talked about like the role of, do we say love in education and like, and you know, that and that level of vibrational energy connectedness, social connectedness, which just is such a predictor of life satisfaction. And we know the rise of the companion bot or the companionship and therapy is the number one use case for gen AI at this point in time.
Michelle Culver (05:45)
I love Isabelle. She's brilliant.
Yes.
Hmm.
Louka Parry (06:06)
And so what are you discovering in that inquiry? know, like how, how can, you know, potentials and pitfalls, how are you seeing positive emerging use cases about how this technology helps us connect and rebuild relationships? And where might we, where are you also seeing kind of the inverse of that, which is perhaps it being like replacing human connectedness in a way that might actually not be, you know,
Michelle Culver (06:11)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Louka Parry (06:33)
ultimately really healthy or towards the thriving of a human.
Michelle Culver (06:36)
⁓ There's so much in your question. I'll start actually just by helping folks even just access what we mean by companion bots, because for some of us, that's probably really intuitive, and for others, that may not yet be, because it's ⁓ certainly not the way many, at least the adults, grew up connecting. these companion bots are AI-generated beings that work to create and foster emotional connection.
Louka Parry (06:38)
Damn it.
Michelle Culver (07:01)
⁓ And so they personify and replicate human relationships, although they're clearly not. And the reason why I begin there is because young people we see when we talk to them, they're both using these AI companion bots. And they're also using other gen and AI applications as thought partners, a place to vent about their emotions and feelings, a way to get someone to
to get the AI to help them think about a better text response to their boyfriend that they disaffected or the friend that left them unread that they're feeling some kind of feelings about and want to work through with an unbiased thought partner. So they are in some cases building an actual emotional attachment in a personified character or being. And other times they're just like a thought partner or resource, more like a tool to help them get back into relationship with other humans.
And when you think about both of those use cases taken together, Common Sense Media put out a report that said 76 % of young people are already doing this. And over half are regular users of AI in these relational ways. So when you start to unpack it, it's like, well, why? Well, actually, let just say this. The reason this matters so much, aside from just the numbers, is it does really mark a shift. This is you and I right now. are
using technology to connect across the world. And so we are leveraging AI to relate to other people. And this moment marks the first time where we're not just connecting through technology, we're connecting with technology itself. So there's not an actual human on the other side. It's a large language model. That's a massive shift in our human development. And so you have to wonder
Louka Parry (08:31)
Run.
Michelle Culver (08:44)
Well, why is this happening? What value is it adding to young people? And the truth is, it makes sense that they're drawn to this. First and foremost, when you really get under the why, they begin by talking about it's fun. They get to talk to Harry Potter. They get to play out a role play with the mafia boyfriend. They get to do all kinds of things that are just really about experimentation. And we've always seen young people are
often the first to go to technology for experimentation, exploration, entertainment. So it begins often that way. And then what they start to uncover is that AI gives pretty good advice, actually. Oftentimes they're able to bring things that really do matter to them, and the AI is available really whenever they want it. So as when humans might be going to sleep or might be preoccupied with other things,
This resource is available to them all the time. And so it's adding real value to young people. And then when you probe a little deeper, they describe and explain that it feels like a relief to be in a conversation, especially this is true for adolescents, but I think this is true for adults too, where you're not being judged. You don't actually have to worry what the other person is thinking about you. And you can just be with whatever is present for you.
Louka Parry (09:37)
Hmm.
Michelle Culver (10:00)
And they sometimes even go as far as to say, you know, it's easier than talking to real humans in my life. Or I don't actually have humans in my life and in small percentage, I actually prefer it to the humans in my life. So you see a real range and I want to begin by opening that up because again, we adults and we should have some real caution and concern. And I do. It's part of my motivation right now is to try to get ahead of some of the risks that we can anticipate with this.
Louka Parry (10:10)
Mmm.
Michelle Culver (10:27)
but it's also some real benefits and value that young people are finding in this.
Louka Parry (10:31)
Yeah, great. Let's go like a layer deeper into that Michelle as well. I think that the companion piece for me, so it's so interesting because it just, it really implicates what it means to be human. And what is it that leads us to live a life well lived, you know, including protective factors, which of course quality relationships are the greatest protective factor we have for not just lifespan, but health span.
Michelle Culver (10:36)
Okay, great.
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Yes.
Louka Parry (10:57)
So that's
why I think the relational bit is just so interesting and good teaching and learning is relational. It's not transactional. You know what mean? We've always known this. So that also means, wow. It means we can learn potentially with using this as a use case, you know, and Benjamin Bloom's two sigma problem paper has been like held up as like, maybe now we'll be able to get a one, you know, the one to one model of instruction, which increases achievement and now, you know, tightens the bell curve. Maybe this, this, if everyone has a tutor in their pocket.
Michelle Culver (11:02)
Yes, yes, yes, we know this.
Louka Parry (11:27)
we'll be able to get there, know, and Sal Khan and others, you know, open AI, Microsoft, everyone's playing with this idea. So I'd love you to take us into kind of the learning space about the implication for something like this. You know, now we have a companion that we might have a relationship with always accessible, which means we don't have to put up our hand and wait. And so that's a positive thing. But of course, what are also the kind of the challenges or the potential risks that we must keep an eye on as we.
Michelle Culver (11:39)
Hmm.
Louka Parry (11:57)
kind of embark into this new era.
Michelle Culver (11:59)
Well, let me actually just first tell a story that gives a little bit of a glimpse into my worldview about learning because even though I suspect that this is an extension a lot of the conversations you've had with your listeners and audience, it's certainly not something we can take for granted. And so when I think about our current system, at least in the US, we see a largely one size fits all, fails most model. And so...
Part of when I start to dream into what is an expanded view, it's informed in part by my own experience when I became a parent. So I moved from being a classroom teacher to becoming a parent. And I made a choice that surprised me to put my daughters into a school that really is designed to optimize for curiosity. That's where the student is the co-architect of their education. That's their tagline. And what this looked like was my kindergartner showed up for school.
And the first thing they did is they asked her what she wanted to learn. And this is also the case for what they do with the eighth graders and everything in between. And so my daughter had just seen a recent community theater with us as a family. And so she said, I want to study plays. I want to study theater. So the first thing that they did is they took her to sit next to a female director while she was casting.
so that Elsa, my daughter, could ask her questions about what she was doing in the context of the real world and in a role model that she could start to see herself in. And then they come back to school and they matched her with an older buddy, because again, she was little. And so this older buddy helped her find her own voice to write a play. And then she cast her peers and then directed and starred in this show. She's five.
And I sat in the audience and I wept. And part of the reason I was so moved was, of course, I'm like a proud mama. That's my girl. But part of it was a real moment of humility where I had been in the field of education already at that point for 20 years. And I had actually even helped to write some of the curriculum around having high expectations for all kids. And yet it had never occurred to me that a young person at five could already do what I was witnessing.
this child do. And the reason I say all of that is, and the best part was at the end, without adult intervention, she stood on the stage, and then the kids in the audience raised their hands and then asked her questions about her process. And she reflected on what about the journey she struggled with and when she was surprised. The reason I say this is because it unlocked this point of view. That's not to say that that model is the model for all kids, but it started to help me realize that we weren't asking the right questions about
why young people are learning. And then, of course, all the subsequent questions about what are the outcomes and what are the methods we're bringing and with whom are we learning? Is it a person in the real world and an older buddy or is just a teacher in a traditional context? And I share all of this because what I witnessed this model do, and again, there are many ways to answer these bigger questions about why, what, where, with whom, how you make this available and equitable for all kids. But what it really
unearthed for me was that when we put that sort of young person in the driver's seat, as you've talked about so many times, where they're really driving their own learning, it's such a powerful unlock for all of the other things that come from that. And in this moment, to get to where you started, I just keep thinking AI is going to be such a profound accelerant of the models that our kids are sitting in. So if we are teaching young people that
Louka Parry (15:30)
you
Michelle Culver (15:33)
They just need to master the content and regurgitate it in order for performance to be accelerated. Then AI can do all that for you, frankly. It's like, why learn? What is the point of learning if that's the model? This tool is going to do it faster than any teacher is going to be able to do in a classroom. But if we really go to the heart of curiosity, then AI can be this profound unlock for their leadership, for their agency, for their curiosity.
to help them accelerate, identify the questions that they want to pursue, accelerate and consider multiple different angles, synthesize lots of different perspectives, apply it in the real world. And so I just keep thinking the most important thing in this sort of construct of the future of learning is really doubling down on helping young people identify their own agency and curiosity. And AI then can become a powerful unlock for that model.
Louka Parry (16:27)
I love it. Thanks for taking us through that story. It's just such a great reminder that, you know, it's like the truism. My teacher thought I was smarter than I was, so I was. What young people are really capable of, it is quite significant. And I think as soon as we put them into the sausage maker model, to use Yong Zhao's language, and, you know, we've got some lovely sausages, you know, it's just such an interesting moment to think about.
Michelle Culver (16:30)
You
Mmm.
Yes.
Yeah.
Louka Parry (16:52)
Yeah. And I really think we are in that kind of in the, the kind of what the chasm is in front of us. think Michelle, you have to leap this chasm and have the kind of implementation dip of moving into a new paradigm. AI I see is perhaps as transformational as the invention of electricity as a horizontal general purpose technology. because of course it then embeds into every other tech vertical.
Michelle Culver (17:08)
Yes.
Louka Parry (17:16)
and accelerates. And to your point, I hadn't thought about it in those terms as clearly. I really like that reflection. It will accelerate whatever the model is that we have. we can, but we might end up running faster to the wrong destination. Then I'm really orienting ourselves to turn towards the future and go, okay, well, actually this, think, especially competency rich with high quality content, but you know, really making sure the balance saw. The other piece I love from Charlie Fidel who's been on this podcast too is
Michelle Culver (17:23)
Yeah.
Yes.
Louka Parry (17:44)
It's not expertise, it's expertise and transfer. What are you gonna do with what you know? Show me what you know, make it authentic assessment. If a teacher is marking something that only they are seeing, first of all, the teacher's working way too hard. What a lost opportunity for there to be a real audience. Fascinating. I have a question for you about...
Michelle Culver (17:47)
Mmm, yep, that's right. Yeah, that's Mmm, I love that.
Hmm.
Louka Parry (18:06)
cognitive struggle. It's one that I grapple with Michelle, when I look at young people using this tech. so the genie is out of the bottle. It's not as if we need to get bands, etc. It's not going to work. And we've worked with a few systems here in Australia that have, know, South Australia has a thing called EdChat, which is a guard railed LLM, know, LLM, which, you know, students use in their classrooms, and teachers use for their planning. And so that's kind of some forward thinking here in Australia.
Michelle Culver (18:29)
Mm-hmm.
Louka Parry (18:35)
But the thing that I keep reflecting on is...
the difference between using AI as a crutch and using AI as a, as an extent, like someone that extends your learning or something that extends your learning. And, you know, I don't know if you came across the MIT study that came out a couple of months ago. mean, non, you know, it wasn't peer reviewed 54 students. So small, small sample, but there's something about how we help our young people struggle more with this tech, not struggle less because learning is
Michelle Culver (18:48)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Louka Parry (19:07)
grappling. That's what the learning process is. So what do you see in that in that kind of piece around cognition and making sure that these tools are actually extending thinking for learners, not just replacing thinking?
Michelle Culver (19:09)
beautifully said.
Mm.
Well, maybe because I think you just did such a beautiful summary of that current state, I maybe just extend it to say, I think there's another piece of this that's related that we're not talking about as much in education that I think we should be, which is to say, I also think we need that kind of productive friction relationally. So.
We often think, my gosh, that conversation was so uncomfortable, or that person rejected me, or I'm so embarrassed because I did something that didn't go the way I wanted, or I didn't have the beautiful response in the moment, or that person was making eye contact in a way that made me uncomfortable I didn't know what to do. There's so many real moments of discomfort that happen in general. And for young people today, when that happens, often their felt sense and the way they make meaning of that is that there's something wrong.
There's a problem here. I'm not good at this. I shouldn't try it again because it's wrong. It's bad. And I think what we want to try to do is to say those feelings of discomfort in human relationship, that's actually part of growing. That's part of discovering. That's part of serendipity. You know, it's like the moments that your heart is...
broken open and then has to heal back together and those moments where you get to uncover a point of view that you just wouldn't have normally considered even if it was so uncomfortable to sit through. All of these just ways of being together, I think increasingly we are defaulting to technology that allows us to not have to feel that discomfort. And in doing so,
Louka Parry (20:59)
Hmm.
Michelle Culver (21:01)
We are creating more and more isolation and more more missed opportunities to nourish ourselves and the collective, even if it's hard to get there. And so I think that that matters. Again, and you said this earlier, but just to underscore, I think this is part of the work of teachers. Because we often think our jobs as educators is to, again, transfer knowledge.
Louka Parry (21:21)
Mmm.
Michelle Culver (21:28)
But I think in a world where we are increasingly more disconnected from each other, and yet we know it has ⁓ a disproportionate effect on both the academic outcomes you're going to see in the classroom, that person's health and well-being, their ability to be successful in the workforce, or frankly, even to have the social skills to be able to land that first job, because social capital is still so relational, and then to have a thriving democracy where
people to come together across differences and disagreements to still create a shared collective. And I just think that's the work of teachers right now is helping our kids build that kind of resilience and practice, even when it's uncomfortable in being together. And in doing so, we'll both help our learners be more effective in the classroom and we'll be building the kind of families and communities and societies that I think our young people long for.
Louka Parry (22:22)
I'm so enrolled in that vision, Michelle. I'm honestly like sign me up. I really am. There's something, something I'm reflecting on a lot at the moment is aliveness. I know it's an interesting thing to say. It's a bit kind of esoteric. It's like, what does that mean? It feels a bit fluff, but alive. And you see these people who are just in their life. They're kind of, they're popping, they're like dynamic. And I think the same thing happens when we're kind of in.
Michelle Culver (22:24)
Ha ha ha ha ha!
Yes.
Yeah.
Louka Parry (22:47)
We enter micro flow state as well. And a great learning experience helps young people tap into that. They're just so in that moment instead of, you know, the inverse, which is kind of apathetic, dysregulated, even disassociated. And I just, I just think how alive are we as, a group of teachers, how alive are we as a school? That's why they're like living system stuff. just am like, is our school a living system?
Michelle Culver (22:55)
Yeah.
Yes.
Louka Parry (23:12)
Is it is it growing or is it just like a machine that's kind of just holding itself together? I just think it's powerful metaphorical expressions. And so why like what brings you alive? Like what? Why do you do? Why this work?
Michelle Culver (23:12)
Yes.
this what you're saying this brings me alive. mean just I mean it really and it really really does it is really what's animating me. So just just to say I think again our education systems often think our job is to educate the mind and then therefore artificial intelligence is a ⁓ an efficiency tool to the sort of most prized intelligence. And yet part of what I'm hearing you say and you said this so beautifully at the start of our call even before we started recording that there are these ancient technologies.
that tap into all of these other kinds of intelligences, whether that is, as you said earlier, breath, or singing, or ritual, or immersing in nature. All of these are ancient technologies that have helped us become alive and, frankly, grieve and heal and learn and be productive and mark milestones and celebrate.
All of these things have defined us for millennia. so part of what really comes alive for me is creating the conditions where that gets to be nourished. And I get to then sort of bask in that, that I'm more nourished to give back even more. it's a sort of like an abundance of just good will and good energy and love and aliveness. We just did this last week, and this feels very
Louka Parry (24:34)
you
Yes.
Mmm.
Michelle Culver (24:49)
present for me because last week we did our third human connection and AI summit. And it is this combination of youth leaders and educators and technologists and mental health professionals and researchers and philanthropists. it is a cross-sector, multi-generational room. And when I first had this idea to do this, people I trust, I mean, these are people whose counsel I seek out.
We're like, don't do that. That is going to be a terrible convening because people don't even understand AI to begin with. And as soon as you bring that many diverse perspectives together, it's going to be too hard to create a shared foundation from which to have a meaningful conversation. You're going to just talk past each other. And I'm so glad I ignored that counsel because this moment to be able to bring all of these different people together and then to carve out time and space for these
Louka Parry (25:33)
Hahaha
Michelle Culver (25:44)
Again, the ancient intelligence, the other AI, all of these beautiful things that we know. So if you create a community where that kind of joy is palpable and everybody understands that they've got something to contribute and you take time and space to connect to yourself and to each other and to this bigger world around us, it was such a...
aliveness was the best way to describe what we were all experiencing together. And then from that place, we can tackle any problem. You know, it's like from that place, now we can build. From that place, now we can problem solve. From that place, now we can lead. And that's, think, the foundation that young people long for. And when we start to tackle these very complex challenges that are around us every day in the news and in our lived experiences,
Louka Parry (26:14)
Mm.
Michelle Culver (26:35)
That's the foundation from which to build. I really do believe in a future where, and this is the name of the Rhythm Projects. It's intentionally called the Rhythm Project to signal spelled like algorithm, R-I-T-H-M, like the agency that we have in relationship with technology alongside the heartbeat of humanity.
Louka Parry (26:54)
that's great. Gives me some response over here. ⁓ I love it. I love it. Especially like the, the, heard once the body is the most extraordinary technology we have. And it's why, you know, our work, I'm just going, I'm getting so nerdy, Michelle on psychophysiology and kind of the vitality that underpins psychology, perhaps, you know, ⁓ all those factors again, you know, as you said, so beautifully.
Michelle Culver (26:55)
Thank you.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Louka Parry (27:23)
We're still educating the mind solely without educating the heart, the gut, the body, you know? And the point is like, we've got great people like, Annie Murphy, Paul talking about the extended mind, you know, distributed, situated, embodied cognition. And that's just the cognitive side, let alone kind of mental health side and everything else that comes out of that. So, yeah, it's just, such an exciting moment to be working in learning, like in learning systems, like just, there is so much going on and, and your point of having the foundation of.
Michelle Culver (27:25)
Yeah.
That's right.
Yes.
Louka Parry (27:51)
possibility, the energy of possibility, almost as a prerequisite for change ever to occur. I got a question for you about what is a question that you mull over the most? What is an unanswered question perhaps for you? Like almost a line of inquiry through your work and you've had a phenomenal career of contribution so far already. what is the like, hmm, that I really want to work out what might be going on in that space.
Michelle Culver (27:53)
Yes.
Yeah. Well, this builds from what you just said about the power of possibility. I mean, we often talk about the future as the future, like predetermined, singular, linear. Here we are in the present, and here's the future. And I think so much of what we're starting to see
Louka Parry (28:28)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Culver (28:39)
happen in really powerful ways in the Rhythm Project is the opening up of that paradigm to invite other people in to say the future isn't predetermined and so we, you young people, I'm not young anymore, but young people and we adults in partnership together we can really still shape this into a future that that you long for.
Louka Parry (28:54)
Hahaha
Michelle Culver (29:03)
And we can put technology to use in ways that accelerate that vision versus erode and undermine those human relationships that are so central in that. And one of the big questions I think I'm trying to figure out is we see over and over again when that invitation is extended, young people, step up to it with, it is like, it is so easy to catalyze.
Louka Parry (29:22)
and like a waiting for us in the
show, yeah.
Michelle Culver (29:25)
It's
so easy. So I think the real question I'm grappling with is like, how do we do that at scale without, how do we make, how do we broaden the number of people who can see themselves as a part of crafting and shaping the future, but do that in a way that doesn't minimize the magic of each one of those conversations and moment of reflection and depth and inquiry and values interrogation, because that is depth work. And yet we,
We need that at scale. And so I think that's something I'm actively exploring right now.
Louka Parry (29:58)
Great. I think there's a number of us trying to figure that one out. Especially the kind of the human intelligence, artificial intelligence interface. I just think that is so interesting. What is catalyzing growth and what is preventing it, frankly. You and I think you've put this really beautifully. I've heard it described as the comfort crisis. And as someone that spent some time
Michelle Culver (30:01)
Hahaha
Mm-hmm.
Louka Parry (30:24)
In the design thinking space and at the D school, you know, I'm, I'm still, I'm really curious about the role of user centered design and in creating, you know, solving all your pain points, Michelle, so that, you know, have no pain, you have no, no reason to struggle. It's all just on an app. And then I'm like, well, what does it mean to be human? It's human about the struggle is where we discover ourselves. So, and I think this is what we're seeing in the kind of, even in the pedagogical space at the moment. It's like, we want our young people to be getting to metacognition.
Michelle Culver (30:31)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Louka Parry (30:53)
We absolutely want to be thinking about their thinking, using their curiosity and their discernment together to accelerate themselves in whatever direction they want to go in. And they might not know that. That's why it's not a linear path. But it's fascinating to be around this work. Yeah, please.
Michelle Culver (30:53)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
I'll offer two
methods I think we underutilize in education that I'm actively testing and exploring. just to say I am myself stepping into new methods after having been in the field for 25 years. So the first is immersive theater. So part of what I've grown to understand is that the same part of the brain that thinks about the
the future is the same part of the brain that gets activated when you're thinking about the past. Said another way, it's physiologically really difficult to imagine possible futures. And so one of the ways in which we're experimenting into that is in partnership with a group called Odd Knock Productions, who have helped us co-create these stories where we invite folks to time travel into the year 2040. And we...
step into a room and these actors and performers are there ready to engage you as though it is a birthday party in 2040 or you're signing up for a consumer product in 2040 or you are in a learning model in 2040 and you have a visceral experience of the parts of that that you love and hate and none of them are designed to be utopic or dystopic but rather to create a possible possibility that provokes a reaction so you can then step out of that room
Louka Parry (32:02)
Wow.
Michelle Culver (32:25)
come back to our current year, and then say, well, what about those possible futures do you want to pull towards you? What about that do you want to mitigate against? And then what does that call you to do today? And so the principle here is in part the arts and in part time travel. But really what it is is about investing in collective imagination and that experiential learning that helps you to imagine the impact of our teaching down the road.
And so I think that's one underutilized tool in our toolkit. And then the second, and this is just like stating the obvious, but it's just joy and play. And we do it so much with the early years with kids when they're little and we understand the intuitive value of games. But we ourselves are just trying to figure out like, how do we create card decks and games that are going to foster debate and discourse and make it feel less scary to have disagreement and instead like a delight.
Louka Parry (33:09)
Yes.
Hmm.
Michelle Culver (33:23)
to uncover perspectives that are different from our own, that help us recenter in our own values and leverage the power of others to help you recenter in what matters most to you, and to make that a joy-filled act instead of something that just feels utterly terrifying. those are play, theater. I'm on a whole, let's be a whole lot more creative these days in our methods.
Louka Parry (33:23)
Mm-hmm.
Ha ha ha ha.
I absolutely
love it. It's so it, you know, it's what makes us come alive. That's, it's heading that direction as much as possible. And I love, we actually do a very similar practice in some of our strategy work to Michelle about creating a museum of the future. And then of course you, and this was inspired by some of the Stanford D school work as well. And it's just phenomenal over there. Lisa K Solomon, the futurist in residence. It's like this whole piece on, yeah, can you experience a speculative future?
Michelle Culver (33:52)
Yeah, that's right.
Mm-hmm.
Louka Parry (34:15)
that you've built. And then from that place, you can actually not design for it, but you can design from it. And that subtle change, I think is like, you know, it opens up again, the field of possibility rather than the field of I need to solve all the problems that are around me today with my current level of thinking, which.
Michelle Culver (34:29)
That's right.
And I have
to give credit to Stuart Candy, who is the Australian futurist who inspired this work for me, who's also got a chance to collaborate with Lisa, believe, as well. So, yeah.
Louka Parry (34:40)
⁓ great. Amazing. have to check it out. ⁓
Michelle has been so wonderful to jam with you on these ideas. I've got one final question and it really is kind of a synthesis of the current moment that you're in. It's just a kind of sentence or two. What is a take home message that you would like to offer the hardworking educators and leaders and innovators that are listening to this conversation and have gotten all the way to the end of it.
Michelle Culver (34:50)
Okay.
Hmm.
I think I would say the future hasn't happened yet. And so it is absolutely ours to collectively shape and influence. And my real hope is that we pursue a future in which human connection is alive and that we use technology to strengthen versus erode that.
Louka Parry (35:24)
Beautifully put. It's been such delight to speak with you, Michelle. After a long time coming, thank you so much for joining us for the Learning Future podcast.
Michelle Culver (35:27)
Likewise, likewise. Thank you.
