S2E6 - Sam Jockel: Leading at Home: The Real Work of Raising Whole Humans
What kind of leader are you in your family—and how is your presence shaping your child’s mental health today and tomorrow?
Are we parenting and educating to avoid discomfort, or are we raising children equipped to face it with strength and support?
📘 Episode Summary:
In this heartfelt and deeply reflective episode of Leading the Early Years for the Future, host Dr Amie Fabry is joined by Sam Jockel, CEO of ParentTV and co-creator of the documentary Seen. Sam opens up about her personal and professional journey—from building one of Australia’s most trusted parenting platforms to confronting the uncomfortable truths of modern parenting.
Together, they unpack the emotional labour of parenting, the disconnect between intention and presence, and how our cultural obsession with productivity often comes at the cost of connection. Sam shares her hard-won insights on family leadership, self-awareness, and the power of slowing down to truly see our children.
Listeners will walk away with a deeper understanding of:
Why 30% is enough when it comes to parenting “well”
How leadership begins within the home
Why discomfort is essential to growth—for both parents and children
How to reconnect with your vision for your family
Whether you’re a parent, educator, or both, this conversation will challenge, comfort, and inspire you to lead with greater presence and purpose.
About Sam Jockel:
Sam Jockel is an Australian entrepreneur, social innovator, and parenting advocate known for her work in creating supportive resources for families and communities.
Beginning her career as a social worker in schools, Sam transitioned into entrepreneurship by founding several online communities, including ALDI Mum and School Mum, which collectively garnered hundreds of thousands of followers. In 2017, she launched ParentTV, a video streaming platform offering expert-led parenting advice to support families and educators.
In 2020, Sam became the Entrepreneur in Residence at the University of Queensland’s ilab Accelerator program, mentoring student startups.
In 2025, Sam co-created the documentary “Seen” with filmmaker Hailey Bartholomew. The film explores the hidden mental health challenges in parenting, focusing on trauma, attachment, and self-discovery. It features insights from experts in psychology and neuroscience and aims to help parents build healthier relationships with their children.
Sam has also authored the book “Parents, This Is the One Thing You Need to Know,” compiling key insights from ParentTV’s experts.
For more information on Sam Jockel’s work and resources:
Connect with Sam Jockel:
Stay Connected with Dr Amie Fabry:
Subscribe to Leading the Early Years for the Future for more insightful conversations!
🎧 Tune in now and discover how to lead with purpose, creativity, and collaboration!
Hire this host via hello@thelearningfuture.com
[Transcript]
Amie Fabry (00:08)
Hello friends and welcome back to Leading the Early Years for the Future. I am your host, Amy Fabry, and I am delighted today to be joined by Sam Drockle, who is the CEO and founder of Parent TV. Sam is also the producer of the brilliant documentary, Scene, which is a must see for any parent, guardian or educator working with and raising our next generation. Sam, it is such a joy to be speaking with you today. Thank you for joining me.
Sam Jockel (00:33)
Yeah, no worries. It's awesome to be here. I've done lots of work in the early years space. It's a very important space and yeah, and everybody should be paid a lot more.
Amie Fabry (00:43)
Absolutely, absolutely. Sam, I always love to start these podcasts by asking my guests to share something about them that may or may not sit outside the professional hat and role that we play. You know, we're dynamic human beings and there's more to us. We're three dimensional. Do you have a hidden talent and interest or something that just lights you up and brings you joy?
Sam Jockel (01:06)
so I have had, and I know what it is. And my current challenge for myself is to actually, for that's like part of the next bit. I feel like the last few years or probably 10 years of my life have been shut down to focus on work. so. ⁓
Sam Jockel (01:25)
those little sparks of joy. So who Sam's been in the past and things that she's loved doing that she is committing to herself to foster moving forward is hula hooping. I was like a mildly, like a mild pro hula hooper for a while. ⁓ I know right? And also I was like into Latin dancing for years. Like there was a time where I was dancing for nights a week.
Amie Fabry (01:41)
That is so cool.
Mmm.
Sam Jockel (01:49)
like salsa but also like we can move into some samba on the bar and ⁓ different Brazilian has of souls. I was into that. So there's like a theme of like movement of body. ⁓ I do go to the gym like four times a week now and I feel like I've kind of replaced that but there's an element of gym is I enjoy it like it's play but it's work but that really was just like play. Although I have since COVID
Amie Fabry (01:53)
Mmm.
Yeah, amazing.
Hmm.
Sam Jockel (02:16)
but I kind of dropped it for a bit. Been doing quite a bit of paint by numbers, like painting. And actually for our Mother's Day last week, my husband and the kids all bought all these paint by numbers. So we actually did, I say it was paint by numbers and sip with me and my sister-in-law and my mom, but we all just sat around. And anyway, so yeah, that's the little bit of like, and I have plants.
Sam Jockel (02:42)
that I love my plants. I'm looking at them now, you can't see them. And my cat, I feel like they're the little pockets of joy, my cat, my plants, paint by numbers, hula hooping. And I think that would be my life if I didn't have to work. And I'm like, I am a fun person when I'm not working and really serious.
Amie Fabry (02:44)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. ⁓ isn't that, isn't that the reality for many of us though, right? And I think, you know, I can fall victim to this too, because you take your work so seriously and you want to give it everything, but sometimes, you know, I can be guilty of giving it too much and not having enough time to play and to enjoy the other things, you know, which life brings movement in particular. I also have to say, I do love a paint by number and my daughters and I have started doing them as well. Like they're just... so relaxing, know, to just sit so peaceful and to slow down a little bit. So, I love all of that. That's beautiful. Thank you for sharing. So honestly, ⁓ so Sam, look, I do want to talk about the work you do, because it is incredible. And, you know, for me as a teacher, but also as a parent, parents are sometimes left out of important conversations, I think, particularly around
Sam Jockel (03:36)
No worries.
Amie Fabry (03:53)
our children and how we really support them and nurture them to thrive as human beings, not just, you know, meet academic demands, which, you know, there's that side that often creeps into early education and schooling in particular. And so I love that, you know, you are actually supporting parents through parent TV. Being a parent can be really overwhelming. And sometimes there's too much information out there and too many perspectives and it's like, what do I do?
Can you tell us about the work that you're doing at Parent TV and how that came about?
Sam Jockel (04:22)
Yeah, well Parent TV has been around for about 10 years now. Pre-Parent TV, I founded two online communities and I ran those for about eight years and they ended up with 650,000 parents as a part of them and they were Facebook pages and then kind of like a connected blog and most of my time was just...
Amie Fabry (04:38)
Wow.
Sam Jockel (04:47)
doing articles and various different things, just producing content. How that was monetized was by like sponsorship and advertising by brands. So what kind of happened for me was I'd started out like wanting to kind of help parents and build these communities. And then, you know, eight years later, most of my time was going to promoting I say two minute noodles and Milo to mums.
Sam Jockel (05:12)
And there was this point that I was just like, I can't actually do this anymore. I feel like it just had strayed so far from my values and my vision for my life. So I literally just shut it down one day. There's a kind of story there, but.
Sam Jockel (05:28)
And I guess I sat with myself and I was like, what did I learn? So this is 10 years ago. And what I learned was that parents were going online asking for help and trying to find information about what was happening for their kids. But what I witnessed was a choose your own adventure in terms of that information and lots not being super credible or lots of people with really good hearts.
Sam Jockel (05:55)
who became really popular sharing their thoughts on parenting, but were not actually kind of connected to any kind of research or credibility. And, you know, there's definitely a place for lived experience, but I think when that just stands all on its own and outside the context of the wider conversation that can get a little bit dangerous. And so it's about those two things living side by side.
Sam Jockel (06:21)
Um, so yeah, I kind of just really felt like at that point, 10 years ago, there wasn't really a trusted place online that you could go as a parent, uh, to get information. And then you could kind of feel a little bit like there was some crit, like known credibility there. So yeah, parent TV is now.
over 50 of the world's leading experts, we have over 2000 videos, everyone is kind of vetted, we film the content. So it isn't like YouTube where anyone puts up anything. It's psychologists, psychiatrists, pediatricians, occupational therapists, and then known and loved people like Maggie Dent and Dr. Justin Colson and Dr. Vanessa LaPoint. so yeah, and most of the videos were like five to 10 minutes, really just answering the questions parents were asking, we tracked everything kind of zero to 17.
come and be like, I've a three year old and I'm having sleeping issues or feeding issues. And there would be information there. So that's kind of where it started 10 years ago. Where it's kind of at now is probably quite different. And I'm going to be honest because that's all I do and truthful about what happened after I started it and what I witnessed and experienced.
Sam Jockel (07:37)
So we ended up having childcare centers in schools and everyone is our kind of main audience. sorry, our main customer. So they actually purchased Parent TV as a subscription because we have no ads, advertising, nothing. Like it is just an exchange of information. We had to generate revenue because it was like, I mean, I had to actually raise capital. So I, you know, overall had raised over $850,000. Actually it'd be over a million dollars now, various different things for people. Like it was a whole thing.
Sam Jockel (08:05)
and so those schools and childcare centers would go out to their parents and be like, who, like, if we get parent TV, or is this something that people are interested in? And everyone's like, yes, yes, we are. And we want this, we need so much help. But what I witnessed unfold was so they would subscribe to parent TV, we would like do everything you could imagine in terms of like getting in front of parents. And by what we found is they just didn't use it. And how I described this is I think it was a little bit like the gym membership. Everyone's like, absolutely, yes, I'm going to the gym and I'm getting healthy and it's going to be amazing. And then I get it and I go maybe one time and I'm like, this is uncomfortable. And, and actually this is no fun at all. And then they don't go back.
Sam Jockel (08:52)
And I feel like Pery TV was a bit of a gym membership. Actually, this work is a gym membership. It is the, you know, and what I learned over those 10 years was that parents needed more support with that than I realized. And I think it wasn't just a case of support that parents also needed a vision.
Amie Fabry (08:58)
Yep. Yeah.
Sam Jockel (09:15)
I think, and maybe this feeds into some of this leadership stuff, but you know, there's a saying without a vision that people perish. I think it's true. I'm not sure that people...
Sam Jockel (09:27)
Yeah, really understand where they're going or where they can go or what that could look like. Or there's this other thing that I'm aware of as we talk about all of this gym membership like analogy. Everybody knows the Biggest Loser TV show. What they actually found when that show came out was that people actually watched it and went, I'm not that fat, I'm fine. And it actually decreased people's...
Sam Jockel (09:52)
motivation to want to get healthy because in comparison to the people on the shows, they felt like they were doing pretty well. Even though potentially they did have some work to do in terms of health and, but actually it did the opposite. And I think about that sometimes in terms of like all of the content that we take in as parents often is from news and media showing us examples of like.
Amie Fabry (09:55)
Wow.
Sam Jockel (10:19)
kids breaking into cars and getting into trouble and doing like really extremely bad things. And I think it's easy to go, whoa, my kids aren't doing that. We're fine. ⁓ When really maybe our kids are really struggling and do need our help, but in comparison to that extreme narrative, we can miss it as parents. so, yeah, I think about all of those things. That's what I spend my time thinking about, Amy. ⁓
Amie Fabry (10:21)
So good.
Sam Jockel (10:46)
trying to just understand what the miss is, because I'm like, you've got people screaming out or parents or people saying, we need help, we need help, we need help. We actually developed something that was really helpful and problem solved that parents didn't have to pay for it because that was another barrier. Cause they're like, why would I pay for this? I can just go to Google and get this free. But the problem with that is you just,
Amie Fabry (11:07)
Exactly.
Sam Jockel (11:09)
You don't know really what you're going to get or you could find yourself. The other issue with the internet and who we follow is we just end up following people that validate our position. And actually most of us, like I now find people who don't validate my position. Like that just means I don't have to do anything. It's like I'm looking to find the thing that says you don't have to do anything. But one thing I can tell you is we've all got to do something.
Sam Jockel (11:34)
Like, the answer is work right now in terms of the effort that needs to go into turning around what's happening for our kids. yeah. Yeah.
Amie Fabry (11:43)
Mmm. Absolutely. there's a lot to unpack there, Sam. I really appreciate your honesty. Let me just say that to start with. You know, I think we need more honest conversations about, you know, what we do and how it's going and the learning that needs to come from that. Because, you know, like you're pointing out, you know, you've got this amazing resource, but you're also having to learn that maybe... parents aren't using it. And maybe there's more that we need to think about in how we support them to engage with this stuff. You you're talking about these extreme narratives. And I think for educators, we often see the same thing. You know, whether we're parents or educators, we hear the extreme versions and then it validates that we're actually doing okay. And we are doing okay, let me say. We're doing lots of things amazingly well, but where are the opportunities for us to learn and grow? That is that uncomfortable space. And how do we sit in that?
So tell me about seeing and how that came about then.
Sam Jockel (12:37)
Yeah, I guess. Thinking about all of what I just said, Seen really was the piece that emerged that I was like, we built the what next with parent TV, but I don't think parents have truly sat in the why. Why does this need my time and attention? Why do I need to keep pushing through when it just feels uncomfortable or
what you know or if it doesn't have my attention and I think everything's fine like that is also a lot of the time a problem because people are often just living in denial ⁓ of reality and just hoping it's going to go away if I just ignore it for long enough ⁓ and that it actually amplifies it doesn't go away and so and I think
Sam Jockel (13:25)
It also mapped my own personal journey. Like I say all this stuff as a parent of three children myself who has gone on a really big journey of having to see myself and understand the impact that I was having on my children. It's very strange because like parent TV seriously impacted me as a person and therefore impacted the environment that
Sam Jockel (13:49)
I was raising my children in because it was very intense and it had all of my attention for a long time and I was carrying a lot of responsibility and I didn't have the bandwidth for my children's needs. Like my needs and well the business's needs became so big and I had to service those that everyone else was being thrown under the bus and
Sam Jockel (14:14)
that was starting to have an impact and I had to pull up and reassess the situation. But you know, didn't actually, actually honestly, I didn't pull up. No, I just kept going until I was on my knees and life and my situation gave me no other option but to pull up.
Sam Jockel (14:36)
And I guess that's often what happens to us. It's like, we can't ignore this stuff. And in some ways I probably was, but I was trying to figure it out. you know, it was, I could see it, but it just felt too big at that point. And the situation just got me to a point where I had to face reality. ⁓ And then I had to go through a big process of...
Sam Jockel (14:58)
guess processing that, which was my work, which was my facing the fires, which was my, did I get here? And how did I let this happen? And who was this really for? And what was this really for? And, you know, ultimately it was all being driven out of my own wounds, my own childhood, my own sense of worthlessness outside of like, just as a human.
Sam Jockel (15:25)
And that my value and worth was in this business that I was doing. And so when it wasn't doing well, it felt like my life was on the line. And then I had to ask myself the question, like, why do I not go to, like the most confronting question for me is the lengths that I went to for that business, I did not go to for my children. And I think this is true for a lot, like what we do.
Sam Jockel (15:52)
for our jobs and businesses and how far we go while our children are like super struggling and we are turning away from them and we are not going to those lengths for them. Like that is an interesting thing to sit with and just go. Wow, and I would say that is about culture. We don't do that as culture. And I'm like, and ultimately,
Amie Fabry (15:54)
Absolutely. Yeah.
Sam Jockel (16:17)
It is that we have got to a point where we actually don't value children and we don't, we've forgotten who they are and what they need or because this is terrible. Like they're the most vulnerable of all of us in terms of particularly in those really, really young years. They are unable to speak up for themselves properly to advocate for themselves. We have literally just gone.
Sam Jockel (16:45)
we'll just ignore that and then serve ourselves. Like really. And I was doing that and it was starting, you know, I would say things felt like they were falling apart in my world personally to a degree. I did have lots of good grandparents support. I don't know how anyone survives this without that. So I was saved by my...
Sam Jockel (17:07)
community and network, which is strong and always was strong. Something in menu. Yeah, like I didn't really step into this without that. Like that was there and it may, it was still there. And if not for that, then I think the outcome would have been really different from my story. So after I went through all that, I had this other, I guess I just.
I had a, lens shifted. And so as I was doing parent TV, I was like, hold on a second. Like I'd done all the things. I'd watched all the videos. It actually wasn't enough. There were definitely protective factors there for my children. They were somewhat like safe and supported through what I was doing kind of, but at that core wound, at the core of the issue, I was not.
addressing that. ⁓ And which is not what we do for our children, but who we be for our children. What is the energy of your home? Like, yeah, and, you know, one really small example that I feel like is simple, but you kind of start to get it is like when I was busy working, every time my kids would come and interrupt me,
Sam Jockel (18:10)
my response and the energy of my person. I mean, I didn't swear at them or yell at them or like carry on, but would just be like, what do you want? Like I'm busy and consistently them having needs was something that I would turn against or turn away from them, you know, ⁓ because my needs and my things were more important. And so they start to learn,
Sam Jockel (18:36)
mom gets angry at me when I need something or there's something wrong with me or you know, they start to internalize all these stories that become the base that that's a lot of that mental health stuff. We don't even know that we're doing it. Because actually, it's very developmentally normal for children to have needs and want to connect with us talk to us ask us for help and we do not have the bandwidth and space available for our children's needs and we're getting angry at them for being who they are. And so
Sam Jockel (19:03)
they internalize, well there must be something wrong with who I am. We're actually, no, that's on us. But the demands of life with work and all the things mean we just don't have that bandwidth available for our kids. And that's the pro- that's actually just the problem. Like it's a simple problem. Kids need something from us and we treat them
Sam Jockel (19:28)
like crap because they need that, like it's their fault. Yeah.
Amie Fabry (19:31)
Yeah. It's and it's the brutal honesty, right? Like that we all have to sit with is that very fact that we are not there for our children the way they need us to be. And, you know, you mentioned them having needs is developmental. That's normal. They actually need to depend on us as the adults in their world. And yet we don't want them to depend on us. We're so quick to try and make them independent and say, you know,
Sam Jockel (19:49)
Yeah, I know. Yep.
Amie Fabry (19:57)
You should know better than this and you know, come on, that's not good enough. And you know, you should do this on your own and what's wrong with you, you know, and we, we use that kind of language because we want them to be independent because we don't have time for them. Yeah. And I, you know, I feel this too, as a parent, know, everything that you're saying resonates with me and it is still hard to sit with that because there's so much guilt that comes with that, you know, and you know, as a teacher, Sam, I remember
Sam Jockel (20:05)
we do. As quickly as possible. Yep.
it's so hard.
Amie Fabry (20:23)
being, you know, thinking I was this amazing early childhood teacher. And when I have kids, this is going to be a walk in the park, you know, and then you have your children and you realize this is so much harder actually having your own children than even being an educator. You know, and I'm in that ongoing journey as well. You know, how to balance things that really are important to me in terms of my work, but not to compromise my children and their needs at the same time. And it is ongoing and it is so hard.
Sam Jockel (20:32)
Yeah.
Amie Fabry (20:49)
so hard. But I think, you know, some of the points that you've, you know, mentioned around these are societal issues, right? Like how we frame. Yeah.
Sam Jockel (20:56)
yeah, yeah, so this isn't about individual parents. We are set up.
Life is set up to not allow for this in a way that is out of so many of our control. So it's not a blame game, but it is coming back to an understanding.
Amie Fabry (21:03)
Mm, absolutely. So is this, is this why you created this documentary?
Sam Jockel (21:14)
Yeah, yeah, I guess I knew I was kind of, I felt like I saw a star in a grenade, but I'm glad nothing's blown up. I didn't quite know what was gonna happen. And I feel like what's happened is people have just kind of said thank you for shining a light on something that we feel deep down. And, you know, the director, Haley Partholomew really did that in a way like,
Amie Fabry (21:23)
Yep.
Sam Jockel (21:40)
that was quite extraordinary in its ability to sit in such compassion around this because it is hard. And there's a lot of pain that we're all gonna collectively have to sit in together around this as we truly admit and acknowledge the truth of the situation. And so...
there needs to be a lot of love and a lot of compassion there because that is kind of the only way to hold this. It doesn't help to, I mean, the pain's still there, but just to hold it side by side and getting into shame and blame doesn't actually help anyone. Those two things just stop us from taking responsibility because, know, so it's kind of like you've got to pull up.
You've got to pull up out of blame. You've got to pull up out of pointing the finger. And we just have to be like, we all feel this. And there's something just very human and very true about it. So really the documentary is just something we've put out there to try and bring to the light of day a tricky conversation. You know, what I'm sitting with now,
Sam Jockel (22:49)
around it all is like this next bit is out of my hands. People decide what they want to do with that. The systems like yeah and I'm here to help support the
Sam Jockel (22:59)
you know, and I'm open to conversations about, okay, well, if this is like, the question is, if this is true, then what next? And I do have some ideas about that, but I know what's next isn't me doing everything while I just sit to produce that documentary. I'm like, hey guys, the next bit is that you'll wake up and everyone starts to do their bit. ⁓
Amie Fabry (23:02)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Sam Jockel (23:26)
and stop blaming everybody else and pointing the finger and to take control of what is within your grasp. So even for me right now, I've come back and I'm like, the most, the thing I'm protecting the most is me not being too busy right now. It's so funny, like you got in this call and you're like, my God, you must be so busy. was like, no, I went to the gym this morning and had a shower and now I'm here doing this because what?
Sam Jockel (23:52)
my family needs from me, if I've learned anything about this documentary, is for me to be okay and have bandwidth so that when my kids walk in the door this afternoon at three o'clock, I can at least turn around and say, hey, how was your day? And not be like, oh my gosh, my kids are getting home. Now I'm not gonna be able to work properly for the next two hours. They're gonna want things from me. It's gonna be like really annoying.
Sam Jockel (24:19)
And then they will, and to not just be like, hi, how are you? And pretend like I'm doing the thing that I'm meant to be doing, but to actually be in that moment in my body, in presence, nowhere else, but like you've walked through the door and I see you and how's your day? And I know that I'm building mental health into my children.
Sam Jockel (24:43)
And that might've cost me 10 minutes, but it's gonna cost me a lot more long-term if I don't give that 10 minutes or whatever it is. And you actually have to be really mindful of that. Like, because the scripts we run, generally I feel is just, well, at least that was true for me. I can't speak on behalf of everybody, but that children are just getting in the way of us.
Amie Fabry (24:52)
Absolutely. Mm. Mm-hmm.
Sam Jockel (25:06)
getting, doing what we need. And so we want you to just figure it out yourself, entertain yourself. And unfortunately that's become screens and that's a whole other world of impact that's happening on children. But for me, it's just, what do I need to do so that when I see my children, I'm not like, you're a burden, but I'm like,
Sam Jockel (25:31)
It's lovely to see you. And that's on me as the adult to lead. Like I know this is about leadership. That's what leadership is. Leadership is you are setting the energy, vision and tension of your home. And I say to my husband, we've been married for 20 years, but it's only in the last few years since we've been doing this work that it's like, what is our vision for the relationship we wanna have with our children when they're older?
Amie Fabry (25:33)
Yeah.
Sam Jockel (25:56)
Are we actually doing the things now that are leading towards hopefully getting that outcome? You know, which is everyone wants like, I believe most adults who are older want to have a nice relationship with their adult children, be able to see their grandchildren, want their children to come over and have a barbecue at their house sometimes and give them time and attention and value them. Do you know how you get that?
Sam Jockel (26:20)
give your kids time and attention and value them as children. Because if you don't do that, then you've just taught them. We don't give our family time and attention and value them. That's not something that we do. And then they're demanding it and getting cut when their kids are like, kids never come and see me, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, well, how did you treat them when they were kids? Because you modeled, you modeled that. They've just become you as adults.
Amie Fabry (26:28)
Hmm. Exactly. Yeah.
Sam Jockel (26:45)
based on how you treated them as children. And it's just like, and I say, you know, even to my husband about our parents, how we treat our parents, how we're going to look after them as they're aging, is showing our children our expectations of what we want them to do for us. There's some accountability there. However you're treating your parents is what you're modeling to your children.
Amie Fabry (26:47)
I know.
Sam Jockel (27:10)
how you treat your parents. And that's why, like once you come to truly understand that our children are seeing what we do, like are seeing our actions and that's, you know, we can say all the things in the world to our children, but who we are, how we be is actually what they're mapping. And so, you know, for me, I've just taken a very big step back from all of it and just gone.
Amie Fabry (27:11)
Yeah, absolutely.
Hmm.
Sam Jockel (27:36)
What is, how do I wanna keep living my life right now that is showing my children, that is building a future that I want in terms of my relationship and connection with them. And that's actually true for my marriage and my husband too. Like that relationship, I think about the same as, and that I'm not, you know, from a leadership point of view, like I've, everyone,
Sam Jockel (27:58)
everyone needs to be a leader and the first person that you're leading is yourself. And if you don't know how to lead yourself, like, you know, it's very hard to lead other people and you, and you, you do have to lead yourself. You do have to know who you are and what your vulnerabilities are or what, you know, and be able to talk to yourself in a way that is kind and encouraging.
Sam Jockel (28:22)
talk to yourself in a way that results in you taking action. ⁓ And once you do that and you understand how to do that with yourself, you become a much better leader with other people, because you understand, people need vision, people need communication, people need kindness, but they also need boundaries and they need some firm stuff like we do. Like we have to be kind and firm with ourselves, but.
Sam Jockel (28:49)
Yeah, I just think sometimes we're all just waiting for someone to come and take the lead. ⁓ And it's like, no, well, yes. And that means you're completely giving up all agency and control for you to be able to go where you want to go and get what you want to get. And yeah, like you...
Amie Fabry (28:55)
Yes, yes.
Sam Jockel (29:12)
I mean, if I've learned anything, I mean, what people need to know about me, it's like, just live in Recliffe with my three kids. Like I've pulled off some crazy stuff. My eldest is 17, if you like from my kitchen bench, like in some ways.
It's not that there's no excuses, like there are barriers and there are things that do make it more challenging for some people versus other people. This is like really random, but like since my eldest daughter got her license and I realized we had to drive with her for 100 hours, I think about those kids who have parents who either don't have cars or are just not interested in that. how on earth are they, and who don't have money, resources or cars? I'm like, how on earth are those kids?
Sam Jockel (29:53)
ever getting a hundred hours of driving up. Like, so there are, there are real things out there that impact people that are not fair that other people have those kind of resources for. But I, I have also learned you can always do something. Like there is this element of like, but you just have to know like where it is that you're trying to go.
Sam Jockel (30:17)
That's, that vision piece. I just, yeah, right now I'm getting much clearer on, just wanna have a really nice relationship with my husband and enjoy his company. And I wanna make sure that our kids really enjoy spending time with us. And sometimes I might ask them.
Sam Jockel (30:36)
Do you would like hanging out with us or if you don't like what is it that we're doing and maybe like considering what they have to say about that, you know, and I mean, they're the things that I'm caring about because I'm like, that's actually within my control and something that feels like will result in a nice life for me if I can have at least that sort of and it's and I don't need, you know, a million dollars to buy that house. I just need to actually remember.
Amie Fabry (30:40)
Absolutely. Yeah. Mm.
Sam Jockel (31:04)
That that's actually what's important and what I really want and just drown out the noise of the world that says that joy and life is in the size of your house and the type of car. I've got duct tape on the back of my car. My Ford territory I've had for 15 years. I'm just like, I don't care. I care about that. That's what we need to start caring about. And it's beautiful. Like it's funny people need.
Amie Fabry (31:18)
I know, right? Yep. I know.
Yeah.
Sam Jockel (31:29)
But when those relationships feel estranged, when the experience is, I have no bandwidth to meet your needs, let alone mine, so we're all just living in survival mode, it's hard to imagine that you can get there. And I guess that's what the documentary was. was a, I want people to know that you can get there.
Amie Fabry (31:38)
Hmm. Absolutely.
Sam Jockel (31:50)
And that there is possible and all those parents in that doco, were not well resourced people like Anne worked at Ali when I met her, Zidia is a Zumba instructor, like, and they stopped for a moment and went, I want things to be different. and essentially the documentary is a, it's just showing people what that looks like and that it's possible. And then
Amie Fabry (31:56)
Yep. Yep.
Sam Jockel (32:14)
And I say, and then the real work begins.
Amie Fabry (32:17)
Yeah,
it's so true though. It's so true. And I think that is the beauty of the documentary is that it plants some very real, honest, raw seeds, you know, and I remember watching it, you know, with my parent hat on first and foremost, because that is the most important role that I do have. But even as an educator, you know, just it was not lost on me how important our role is as the adults in children's lives and
I think we do grossly underestimate the importance that we play. And you know, you're talking about... Absolutely.
Sam Jockel (32:47)
⁓ we do. We are the brain building blocks of their mental health. Like
that is a confronting thing, but it is true. Our family environment and culture.
Amie Fabry (32:54)
Absolutely. you know, you
Yeah. And you know, we do live in a society that tells us that success looks like job titles and pay packets and big houses and, all of those things that actually don't matter. You know, it is about connections and relationships and attachment and we've lost sight of that. We really have. And you know, I think what's really resonating for me listening to you speak is this is work that we all need to do. There isn't
Sam Jockel (33:15)
Hmm.
Amie Fabry (33:24)
point and blame, but I also think because it's so hard, it is going to take these collaborative conversations and compassion for us to do this work together. You know, it is going to be hard work for all of us, but if we think about our families and we think about our children, we actually need to be leaders in our families. And I don't often hear people talk about leadership in families, but we actually need to be the leaders because
Sam Jockel (33:47)
Yes.
Amie Fabry (33:48)
this isn't just magically gonna happen. Our children are just not going to be these thriving human beings that have it all figured out and have good mental health without our guidance and without our true love and support and connection and seeing them and hearing them and making them feel valued like it starts with us at home. And I love also what you're saying with the documentary and you see this in the stories of these really
real and honest parents is that, you know, I don't have to have all the money in the world to be a great parent. I just need to stop and slow down and see my children and spend time with them. you know, and it does, it starts with us.
Sam Jockel (34:24)
Yeah, I love that leadership piece because I think that as well, like, ⁓ and another, I guess, concept that I just use when I think about it myself at home. And I've said this to my kids. I'm like, we're a team. Like this life is a team sport and our family is a little team and
Sam Jockel (34:46)
You know, think about being on a team in terms of sport, like, and dad and I, we're the captains of this team. I don't know, maybe we're the coach. Sometimes I think I like the captains. We're the captains. We're all on the same team. And you know, who wants to be on a team where everyone's just being angry at each other? Like, like this is partly the pulling kids up on the, some of that sibling rivalry stuff as well. And it's still there.
Sam Jockel (35:11)
But it's like, if you really cast the vision, and this is about casting vision, like I, and then keeping on casting that vision, who wants to be on a team where everyone's really well supported and we play a really fun game? Where everyone's welcome here? Now everyone's gonna have different positions. So people can be doing different things. Maybe we can swap positions sometimes. But who wants that or who wants to be on a team?
Sam Jockel (35:36)
where everyone is like angry at each other, blaming each other. Yeah. And the other thing about, and I love this team sport stuff. I also say, know, really quality team games, people like there are boundaries and there are rules. If you have ever played a game that has no boundaries and no rules, that is actually not fun for anybody. That is not a fun game.
Amie Fabry (35:54)
No, totally,
Sam Jockel (36:02)
If you watch kids who don't have boundaries and rules, like it ends up this horrible, everyone's manipulating everyone. These are the rules, that's the rules. Everyone's arguing about the rules. Like it's no fun. Like what is really fun is when everybody knows what the rules are, knows how to play the game, hears the boundaries, are in their positions. And we all just, it sings like.
Sam Jockel (36:28)
And it's like, feel like life's become like, nobody wants the boundaries and rules because they're no fun. I'm like, you know what's not fun? Having no boundaries and rules. Like, that's not fun. Oh yeah, I've like just witnessed a bunch of kids trying to play a game that they're making up. Like it works for a bit and then it just goes like really, really south. And that's often with parents, have to come in and you have to be like, all right, we need to set.
Amie Fabry (36:28)
Yeah. Totally.
Sam Jockel (36:52)
What are the boundaries and the rules? Who's in charge? And you know, some people won't like it
Amie Fabry (36:52)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Sam Jockel (36:57)
and I want to be in that position, but it's like, yeah, you do. And you have to feel the feelings of frustration around that. Your turn might be next time. This is how life works. Everyone doesn't get what they want all the time. And when we try it just turns into a big shit fight. Really? And so, and that's the same in family. So, you know, I feel like when I...
Amie Fabry (37:01)
Hmm. Mm-hmm.
Absolutely.
Mm.
Sam Jockel (37:16)
talk to my kids about that. And it's not perfect all the time. And you know, they were arguing this morning about something, but it is just consistently being like, remember what we want this to feel like. Remember that it feels really nice. This idea of like, we all like each other and are on the same team. you know, and I have seen my kids become warmer to other people. And sometimes it's simple things for me, like,
Sam Jockel (37:44)
I used to be angry at my kids if they couldn't find their school uniform in the wash. You know, just, that's not my problem. Now, I don't know, I'm just like, sure, I'll help you find it. Cause you know what, I'm on your team. And what that actually means, like sometimes people go, well, you're just creating a lazy kid. I'm like, am I, or am I creating a kid who when someone asks for help goes, I know what to do because my mom comes and just helps me. Doesn't get angry at me.
Sam Jockel (38:09)
Yeah, where it's this fine line of like, I don't know what's true, but when we kind of help our kids, people going well, because I feel like I didn't help my kids for a really long time because I wanted to build little independent, who were capable, who were like, you know, independently capable. But what ended up happening was anytime anyone asked for help, everyone just was like, aggressive and angry at the other person. Like, that's not my job.
Amie Fabry (38:11)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Sam Jockel (38:34)
like figure it out yourself like as opposed to an environment where we all are just helping each other and it's okay like
Amie Fabry (38:34)
Mmm.
Hmm, absolutely.
Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. And I think, you know, this is some of the challenge that comes with parenting at the moment is we often have to work against some of the really strong narratives that do sit in society that, you know, blame and shame parents. You know, if you do that, you're setting your child up to be lazy or selfish or, know, when in actual fact, I think for most of us, we're trying to take a more compassionate lens to parenting and say, well,
Sam Jockel (38:47)
Yeah.
Amie Fabry (39:12)
you know, why can't I be there to support my child and show them that actually it's okay to ask for help or it's okay to solve a problem together because you know, we're not just thinking about the family dynamic, which is, you know, very front and center. We don't obviously no one I think is aiming to have an angry family where everyone's yelling at each other and blaming each other and getting angry with each other. But even when you think beyond that, you know, to have children who've experienced that I've got people around me who support me and care about me, that's going to shape
who they become in the world and the compassion they extend to other people. you know, when they get into workplaces, instead of getting angry at someone because they've made a mistake or lost something or don't know how to do something, they're actually going to be like, hey, that's cool. I can sit with you and we'll figure it out together. isn't that just going to be a nicer world for everybody?
Sam Jockel (39:58)
Yeah, absolutely. I think the only caveat I would say to all of this is my tendency was to...
My tendency was to all or nothing. So I was either doing everything or then occasionally I would just get triggered and come down like a load of bricks, like a ton of bricks.
Because I fear for people a little bit like that too much who don't also want to upset their kids and want to make sure that they're always okay and happy. You're also doing a disservice to your child to also like, that's why the rules and boundaries are important because for people who are happy to do the things and just want to have peace and harmony and good feelings in the house.
that can go too far so your children never learn how to, how to experience discomfort, pain, grief. And part of that, for me, you actually have to equally have those feelings in your home. You just have to learn how to feel them and not get angry and shut them down or you shame and shut them down or use like, yeah, because it was kind of, and that's an important piece too. It's like,
And it's not just in home, this is in childcare. Like many of us really struggle with discomfort ⁓ or disappointment or a whole heap of different feelings. And so we will work really hard so that they never have to be there. Or when they are there, sometimes we try and shut them down like really quickly because it's like, this is uncomfortable. And so the challenge is to...
Sam Jockel (41:26)
that a culture and a home, and I'm saying this now because I realize what I've said could be misconstrued, like or someone could be like, my job is to make sure everyone's happy and it's all happy all the time. Actually, no. That as much harm happens to children when it's just about them being happy as when it is like the other. So any extreme is causing serious harm.
Amie Fabry (41:33)
Yeah, sure.
Sam Jockel (41:52)
And that harm is I can't hold disappointment and pain and I freak out and it takes me over and like we have to, it's like we have to say all of these emotions and feelings are welcome here. And I, as the adult in this home, know how to not get take, like know how to hold that, to feel it and hold it and not respond in a way that is harmful.
Sam Jockel (42:20)
but I still have to have a strong boundary and you will, that emotion will pass and my job isn't to make it pass as quickly as possible, but to just sit with you in it and to be okay as the adult. And I say that like really easily and it is the hardest thing ever. Like it is so hard to witness anger.
Amie Fabry (42:26)
Absolutely. Yep.
Sam Jockel (42:43)
and frustration in a child, and this can be an early learning setting, and to not want to make that stop right now because I'm not liking how I feel witnessing that, as opposed to this child is releasing some anger and frustration right now. I can see that's happening for you. I'm just going to stay here with you while you ride that out. We're still not.
Sam Jockel (43:04)
putting on the TV or we're still not having the cookie, but I'm not getting angry at you for being angry because anger is just a normal human emotion that people feel. And the more we shut it down and we don't give them an experience of being able to feel that in healthier ways, the more we amplify it so that it completely becomes uncontrollable. So kids need to, but it's hard. Like it is hard. is. And strangely, there's other weird things that play too.
Amie Fabry (43:06)
Yeah. Totally. So hard.
Sam Jockel (43:32)
I can witness it in my daughters and not be affected so much because I feel like, but my son, much, it is much, I have a very different relationship to how he feels than how they feel. And I know it's gender-based and I know it's cause I've got to make sure that girls are like, can do hard things and my poor son. And they see it and like, what?
Sam Jockel (43:54)
Why are you letting him get away with it? And I have to listen and it's true. And I'm like, my gosh, like I've been modicoddling my son. They will tell you. And I can see the consequences of that while I've been building them to be like emotionless, you know, like I was, because that's what you've got to, I know, right? You've got to see all this stuff.
Amie Fabry (43:57)
That's so interesting.
Yeah.
Yep. Yep. It's so true. I know.
Sam Jockel (44:17)
Because it's all playing
Amie Fabry (44:17)
I know.
Sam Jockel (44:18)
out and you're just blind to yourself and what you're doing.
Amie Fabry (44:22)
absolutely. Absolutely. There's so much truth and you know, we're constantly having to notice, you know, and I think it starts with being aware. And again, you know, what I love about the documentary is it kind of it plants those seeds and makes you think about it. And when you think about it, then you can be more aware of, know, how am I actually showing up for my children? And am I being consistent, you know, like you mentioned, or am I sometimes accepting of feelings and sometimes not? Or am I, you know,
Sam Jockel (44:44)
Yeah.
Amie Fabry (44:49)
supporting one person's feelings and not someone else's feelings, because that happens. I've got two girls, but you know, one's older, one's younger. So there's always a bit of difference there too. And that's work that I have to do. But I, you know, I just, I love that you're talking about being a leader in your family and having boundaries and rules as well, because you know, children feel safe with boundaries and they'll push against them. That's normal, but they need to know that you're still there and you've got them, even though they are going to experience hard things.
Sam Jockel (44:57)
Yep.
Amie Fabry (45:16)
you know, we're going to be there for the good stuff, but we're also there for the bad stuff to sit with them and help them through that. And I think when I think about leadership too, you know, if you're working with adults, you don't want to step in and do everything for them because that's disempowering. And so I think, you know, I love this idea of being a leader in your family, because if you think about how you might lead colleagues, for example, and you think about how would I lead my children? Well, I don't want to disempower them and do everything for them and take away all the pain. I want them to learn and build skills, but
Amie Fabry (45:44)
I can do it in a way that doesn't also throw them in the deep end and expect them to do it on their own. So, you know, what that looks like for us as parents is going to be a little bit different depending on who we are and our sort of family makeup and time and all of those things. But I think it's a a great kind of role to lean into and to think more about, you know, how do we support our children to grow and learn, but not feel that they have to do it on their completely on their own or
or we leave them to sit with some of those big feelings too, or we try and shut them down because, you know, it is the easier option for us as adults. But honestly, not doing a lot to help our young people. Sam, it's been so great to talk to you and I feel like we could talk for another three hours. ⁓ I just wanna, I'm mindful of time and I wanna respect your time, but I'm wondering, do you have any just final thoughts of...
Sam Jockel (46:25)
I know.
Amie Fabry (46:33)
wisdom advice learning that you'd like to leave, you know, even for parents who are just really going, this is great, what might we need to know? What should we be paying attention to?
Sam Jockel (46:40)
Yes. Yeah, so an important thing to know, because I understand for parents who are not currently have a handle, educators on all of their own reactions to their kids, like everything sounds nice, but that you don't hear what I say and then show up in your home and suddenly you're like, because it's in your body. Like your responses are in...
Sam Jockel (47:06)
They are baked into your body and your nervous system based on what happened to you as a child. And the journey that you go on is processing that out of your body. That's what scene is about and out of your nervous system to be able to shift that to show up differently. And it's a journey. So firstly, I would say it's something that you should expect if it's a journey that you want to go on is going to take a couple of years. You have to know that.
Sam Jockel (47:32)
And so when you start, I'm like, it is like a weight loss journey. No one wakes up the next day and suddenly they're like 50 kilos down. There's no pill you can take for that. Really. so, but the other great thing is you only need to get it right 30 % of the time based on research for it to land for your children. So the good enough parent is real or the good enough educator. You do not have to nail it.
Sam Jockel (47:58)
You have to nail it one and three times. So to explain that it's like, because nailing it in one and three times is enough time to create a neural pathway in your kid's brain so that it becomes an option for them that they, that gets baked in. So they still might have the other options, but that one becomes one. It's like, ⁓ that's, that's one thing that I can, I could, I could respond to this this way, but if they've never had anyone respond that way to them, they don't have a pathway to know that that's a way that you can respond to that.
Amie Fabry (48:11)
Yep, amazing.
Sam Jockel (48:26)
is calm and regulated. they're always just gonna their pathways are your pathway. So right, but you know, one in three gives the option, which is good to know, do not have to be perfect, have to know kind of where you're heading. Neuroplasticity is real, you can turn this around anytime like adults are changing themselves. So it's never too late with your kids, it doesn't matter how old your kids are. This can shift for them and for you. Doesn't matter how old you are, there is no it's too late.
Sam Jockel (48:53)
That is not a real thing. That is just an excuse. ⁓ But the key is knowing where you are going and what that 30 % is. In order to have to hit it, you've got to know what it is. And so that's the education piece to encourage people to continue to educate themselves, listen to podcasts, really.
Amie Fabry (48:53)
Hmm.
That's so good.
Sam Jockel (49:16)
start to understand more of what it is that we're talking about here. And the more you become to understand it and get familiar with it, you'll know where you're trying to head and what that kind of looks and feels like. And that will start to, that journey will unfold from there. you gotta, yeah, go and do the work. ⁓ But you've got time. It's not too late. It's gonna take years and it's totally worth it. Like.
Amie Fabry (49:28)
Mm hmm. Yeah. Amazing. Thank you so much for giving us that, you know, that that spark of hope as well, because I, I love the pragmatics, you know, and actually noting that this is this is a long journey, because I think that's important for all of us to know. If you're trying and it feels like you're failing, it's just that it's going to take time. So we need to know that so we don't, you know, set our expectations of ourselves too high.
Sam Jockel (49:43)
So worth it.
Amie Fabry (50:07)
and then want to give up. But I think too, you know, that 30 % piece gives us something to aim for, you know, and again, not trying to completely change or set ourselves up to fail and knowing it's not too late. You know, that is just, that's where all the hope is for all of us to do things differently. If we want to, we absolutely can. We just have to do the work. Thank you so much, Sam, for sharing.
Sam Jockel (50:14)
Yeah.
No worries. Thanks, Sandy.
Amie Fabry (50:30)
Your journey, the work you're doing, but also your personal journey as a parent. I really appreciate your honesty, your openness and just having an honest conversation about what really matters. And I think we can't do that well when we want to pretend we've got it all figured out. And I'm not sure any of us do, right? So it's just so good to be able to talk about these things and talk about.
Sam Jockel (50:47)
Yeah. No, no we don't.
Amie Fabry (50:54)
the importance of parents because they do just have such a phenomenal role in the lives of our children. It's been such a joy. Where can we find out more about Seen if we haven't seen it yet?
Sam Jockel (51:01)
No worries.
Seenthefilm.com. So yeah, everything's on there. Trailers, screenings, links to all the things. Just go to Seenthefilm.com. Yeah, and ParentTV.com is where all the parent TV stuff is as well. Awesome. No worries, Amy. Thanks. You too, bye.
Amie Fabry (51:06)
Amazing. Thank you for the work you do, Sam. It's so inspiring. Great to chat. Bye.
